Welcome to a Cross Generations where the voices of black women unite.

Welcome to a Cross Generations where the voices of black women unite.

I'm your host, Tiffany Cross.

I'm your host, Tiffany Cross.

Tiffany Cross, we gather a season elder myself as the middle generation, and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations. Prepared to engage or hear perspectives that no one else is happy.

Tiffany Cross, we gather a season elder myself as the middle generation, and a vibrant young soul for engaging intergenerational conversations. Prepared to engage or hear perspectives that no one else is happy.

You know how we do. We create magic magic.

You know how we do. We create magic magic.

Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Across Generations. I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. So today we are talking about beauty standards. Now, as you all know, I've worked in television, and working in television, people see you before they hear you. So my entire life, from childhood through write this very moment, I have cared a great deal about how I look. Even now, when I look at myself on camera, I think, oh, maybe my phase issuits, or my hair is out of place or not as full as it used to be. I'm wearing hair clips now, my tummy is protruding sometimes. And as far back as I can remember, I put so much effort into my appearance, and embarrassingly, when I.

Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Across Generations. I'm your host, Tiffany Cross. So today we are talking about beauty standards. Now, as you all know, I've worked in television, and working in television, people see you before they hear you. So my entire life, from childhood through write this very moment, I have cared a great deal about how I look. Even now, when I look at myself on camera, I think, oh, maybe my phase issuits, or my hair is out of place or not as full as it used to be. I'm wearing hair clips now, my tummy is protruding sometimes. And as far back as I can remember, I put so much effort into my appearance, and embarrassingly, when I.

Was a little girl, I wanted a Jerry girl.

Was a little girl, I wanted a Jerry girl.

I know some of.

I know some of.

Y'all did too, and of course my mother said, hell no, thank god, but I did. Used to sneak and put that little aggravator in my hair. I wanted my hair curly and greasy, apparently, so I would wet my hair. And I know y'all remember pink lotion. I used to put pink lotion in my hair sometimes, so anyway, I know some of you are old enough to remember that. But all of this stuff in my hair wasn't healthy for me. And I don't know what I was thinking. I'm sure I look crazy, but I remember looking at women like Jane Kennedy and Vanity. You guys remember Vanity from the Prince era in Sicily Tyson and Felicia Rashad and Debbie Allen and Jacke. These were the faces of beauty and the only makeup line. I knew that cater It's black women back than was fashion fear. I even still remember the commercials. But beauty changed over the years, and by the time I got to high school, I remember seeing beautiful women like Robin Gibvens and Halle Berry and Beverly Johnson and Naomi Campbell and Tyrad Banks and Rachel from Caribbean rhythms. Who happens to be one of my best friends today. Hi, Rachel, So I can say I ever looked to white women to set the standard of beauty for me, but in the ways that the industry has always set them for the standard of beauty for us, I feel like we kind of rebuffed that. Today we celebrate literally every body type, every complexion, every ethnicity, every style, hair texture, and this is very much thanks to the Crown Act passing the House of Representatives in twenty twenty two, which prohibits the discrimination based on hairstyle and hair texture. So we celebrate it all now, but some still find it so difficult to celebrate ourselves. We're still craving everything that are natural beauty, so it still bags the question how far have we come? And how much farther will we go? So excited to have joining me in this conversation. Harriet Cole. She is a celebrated lifestyle expert, a best selling author and founder of dream Leapers. Now with decades of experience in media and style, Harriet has been a guiding voice in redefining beauty standards and empowering individuals to embrace their true selves.

Y'all did too, and of course my mother said, hell no, thank god, but I did. Used to sneak and put that little aggravator in my hair. I wanted my hair curly and greasy, apparently, so I would wet my hair. And I know y'all remember pink lotion. I used to put pink lotion in my hair sometimes, so anyway, I know some of you are old enough to remember that. But all of this stuff in my hair wasn't healthy for me. And I don't know what I was thinking. I'm sure I look crazy, but I remember looking at women like Jane Kennedy and Vanity. You guys remember Vanity from the Prince era in Sicily Tyson and Felicia Rashad and Debbie Allen and Jacke. These were the faces of beauty and the only makeup line. I knew that cater It's black women back than was fashion fear. I even still remember the commercials. But beauty changed over the years, and by the time I got to high school, I remember seeing beautiful women like Robin Gibvens and Halle Berry and Beverly Johnson and Naomi Campbell and Tyrad Banks and Rachel from Caribbean rhythms. Who happens to be one of my best friends today. Hi, Rachel, So I can say I ever looked to white women to set the standard of beauty for me, but in the ways that the industry has always set them for the standard of beauty for us, I feel like we kind of rebuffed that. Today we celebrate literally every body type, every complexion, every ethnicity, every style, hair texture, and this is very much thanks to the Crown Act passing the House of Representatives in twenty twenty two, which prohibits the discrimination based on hairstyle and hair texture. So we celebrate it all now, but some still find it so difficult to celebrate ourselves. We're still craving everything that are natural beauty, so it still bags the question how far have we come? And how much farther will we go? So excited to have joining me in this conversation. Harriet Cole. She is a celebrated lifestyle expert, a best selling author and founder of dream Leapers. Now with decades of experience in media and style, Harriet has been a guiding voice in redefining beauty standards and empowering individuals to embrace their true selves.

Her work has influenced.

Her work has influenced.

How we see beauty, culture and identity, making her the perfect guest to discuss the evolving standards of beauty in America, especially for Black women. And now on our younger side, we have Jasmine Carthon. She is did I say your name? Carthon?

How we see beauty, culture and identity, making her the perfect guest to discuss the evolving standards of beauty in America, especially for Black women. And now on our younger side, we have Jasmine Carthon. She is did I say your name? Carthon?

Thank you? We have a Jasmine Carthon, Thank you.

Thank you? We have a Jasmine Carthon, Thank you.

And she's a model, a community organizer from Compton, California, and she's best known as one of the first plus sized models to win Project Runway and a Sports Illustrated swimsuit finalist. Now she uses her platform to highlight the power in both individuality and community. As one of the founders of Models for Change, Jasmine worked to amplify voices in She toasted events dedicated to building community and advocated for the fair treatment of Black, Indigenous, and people.

And she's a model, a community organizer from Compton, California, and she's best known as one of the first plus sized models to win Project Runway and a Sports Illustrated swimsuit finalist. Now she uses her platform to highlight the power in both individuality and community. As one of the founders of Models for Change, Jasmine worked to amplify voices in She toasted events dedicated to building community and advocated for the fair treatment of Black, Indigenous, and people.

Of color who are creatives.

Of color who are creatives.

Her mission is to inspire action against inequality and work with those committed to making a positive impact. These are two women after my own heart. I'm in good company.

Her mission is to inspire action against inequality and work with those committed to making a positive impact. These are two women after my own heart. I'm in good company.

Thank you, ladies, thank you. I'm feel excited. I have to tell you.

Thank you, ladies, thank you. I'm feel excited. I have to tell you.

Before we got started, Harriet thank you, because she was like, oh, one of your hair clips is showing.

Before we got started, Harriet thank you, because she was like, oh, one of your hair clips is showing.

So we had to fix it.

So we had to fix it.

My natural hair is about like right to my shoulders and so on camera, like the hair can look thin and as you get older, like hair thins. So I wear these hair clips to make it look full. And my hairstyles who was putting it in so well, once we cut them, they're gonna be sure and your hair come out grown?

My natural hair is about like right to my shoulders and so on camera, like the hair can look thin and as you get older, like hair thins. So I wear these hair clips to make it look full. And my hairstyles who was putting it in so well, once we cut them, they're gonna be sure and your hair come out grown?

Why don't you wear it long? So I'm wearing my long hair today. Thank you.

Why don't you wear it long? So I'm wearing my long hair today. Thank you.

We love.

We love.

We can do anything, yeah, but I don't.

We can do anything, yeah, but I don't.

I also wear like I stopped relaxing my hair when I was probably around twenty five or so. I wear my hair natural, like you know I do because I don't want people to think like, oh, you know, I have to relax my hair. I have to wear it straight, and I'm trying to wear it long and like going after these Europeans.

I also wear like I stopped relaxing my hair when I was probably around twenty five or so. I wear my hair natural, like you know I do because I don't want people to think like, oh, you know, I have to relax my hair. I have to wear it straight, and I'm trying to wear it long and like going after these Europeans.

You know what. Also, products have changed so much.

You know what. Also, products have changed so much.

I remember when I was growing up, there were relaxers, they were super, there was regular. Everybody got super because they wanted it to be so straight and it burned your hair off off. But now there's so many products that no matter what your hair texture, you don't have to ever relax it and you can still wear it straight or every other way you want to wear it, so that.

I remember when I was growing up, there were relaxers, they were super, there was regular. Everybody got super because they wanted it to be so straight and it burned your hair off off. But now there's so many products that no matter what your hair texture, you don't have to ever relax it and you can still wear it straight or every other way you want to wear it, so that.

Possible way.

Possible way.

Yeah, what do you think is the biggest change you've seen in your decades in the industry. You've seen a lot of changes. What's fashionable, what's not. What's the biggest change between when you first started and now?

Yeah, what do you think is the biggest change you've seen in your decades in the industry. You've seen a lot of changes. What's fashionable, what's not. What's the biggest change between when you first started and now?

There are more options that are acceptable and even as we mentioned in your open the Crown Act that was twenty twenty two. Yeah, so there are more options, but still, especially in the corporate world, there's an expectation that you conform to whatever the standard.

There are more options that are acceptable and even as we mentioned in your open the Crown Act that was twenty twenty two. Yeah, so there are more options, but still, especially in the corporate world, there's an expectation that you conform to whatever the standard.

Is for that job. Yeah.

Is for that job. Yeah.

The difference even there is that there are thousands and thousands of jobs. So if you don't want to look the way that this corporation looks, you can work someplace else. You also can go in and say no, I'm going to be myself, which is a great thing. It works sometimes, but the Crown Net happened because it doesn't work a lot of the time. But the difference, I think is that there's such a breadth of opportunity and many companies welcome us as we are. That's a nice thing to even be able to say out, yeah, you know, they ultr rise all the way up to the top. I think it still gets more and more conservative the higher up you go, but there is more openness to who we are, how we look. It's still fascination with our hair. People you don't want to touch our hair, you don't want them to do it, but yeah, you.

The difference even there is that there are thousands and thousands of jobs. So if you don't want to look the way that this corporation looks, you can work someplace else. You also can go in and say no, I'm going to be myself, which is a great thing. It works sometimes, but the Crown Net happened because it doesn't work a lot of the time. But the difference, I think is that there's such a breadth of opportunity and many companies welcome us as we are. That's a nice thing to even be able to say out, yeah, you know, they ultr rise all the way up to the top. I think it still gets more and more conservative the higher up you go, but there is more openness to who we are, how we look. It's still fascination with our hair. People you don't want to touch our hair, you don't want them to do it, but yeah, you.

Know it is fascinating. We can do everything with our hair. Most people can't.

Know it is fascinating. We can do everything with our hair. Most people can't.

That's true. We can wear it hou whatever, totally.

That's true. We can wear it hou whatever, totally.

Like even me, like I recently went natural. I've been wearing wigs my entire career, and my hair looks beautiful and healthy, thank you. I did a little flex rock set this morning. Y. Yeah, but you know, it took some time to get to the point where, like, I want to show up in a way that's not just palatable. And when I first came into the industry, I had big, curly hair that was a wig, and that probably gave me a closer proximity to whiteness than yeah, than what the industry wanted.

Like even me, like I recently went natural. I've been wearing wigs my entire career, and my hair looks beautiful and healthy, thank you. I did a little flex rock set this morning. Y. Yeah, but you know, it took some time to get to the point where, like, I want to show up in a way that's not just palatable. And when I first came into the industry, I had big, curly hair that was a wig, and that probably gave me a closer proximity to whiteness than yeah, than what the industry wanted.

For me, or I thought the industry wanted from me.

For me, or I thought the industry wanted from me.

So me deciding to go natural literally this year, was like me taking back my power and saying that I don't need to rely on a security blanket or a security wig.

So me deciding to go natural literally this year, was like me taking back my power and saying that I don't need to rely on a security blanket or a security wig.

Rather, which is what I felt like it was.

Rather, which is what I felt like it was.

And I can show up the way that I feel most comfortable, where I feel most beautiful, where I felt like most natural. And that's not saying that if you wear a wig, clippings, curly, kinky black women, we can show up in whatever way that we want as long.

And I can show up the way that I feel most comfortable, where I feel most beautiful, where I felt like most natural. And that's not saying that if you wear a wig, clippings, curly, kinky black women, we can show up in whatever way that we want as long.

So what has happened though, what has happened this year being natural in terms of the work you've gotten?

So what has happened though, what has happened this year being natural in terms of the work you've gotten?

Well, I did book my first gig with my natural curls and it wasn't it wasn't stretched. It was literally just like a wash and go, and I was really proud of myself and I felt empowered on set. I felt like, you know, I'm not just showing up for myself, I'm showing up for the other black girls who have worn weaves and wigs their whole life and realize that, you know, maybe I want to show something different, show like what how I feel beautiful when I wake up in the morning. And I think mostly the biggest difference that I found was how I felt about myself and how that allowed me to show up on set.

Well, I did book my first gig with my natural curls and it wasn't it wasn't stretched. It was literally just like a wash and go, and I was really proud of myself and I felt empowered on set. I felt like, you know, I'm not just showing up for myself, I'm showing up for the other black girls who have worn weaves and wigs their whole life and realize that, you know, maybe I want to show something different, show like what how I feel beautiful when I wake up in the morning. And I think mostly the biggest difference that I found was how I felt about myself and how that allowed me to show up on set.

And did you have a hairstylist who knew how to do your natural?

And did you have a hairstylist who knew how to do your natural?

That's yeah, that was and you know what with wearing the wigs on set. A lot of times I used it as not used it like it was protection.

That's yeah, that was and you know what with wearing the wigs on set. A lot of times I used it as not used it like it was protection.

For my hair.

For my hair.

I'm like me wearing a wig mint they couldn't burn my natural hair out that actually did have like I don't. I couldn't count how many times, but like I wore my natural hair and they wanted to like just braid it and blow dried it and gave me so much breakage that I had a big chalk and it was frustrating because like you, I stopped wearing I stopped doing perms, like I want to say in twenty twenty ten, twenty eleven, and I just the reason why I stopped wearing perms is because I had leave out and I went to perm my edges and I literally washed my hair out and I didn't have anything to cover my tracks. So it was just like, you know, I can't keep doing this to my hair. And then big hair came out, and I'm scaring all these negative things about putting these chemicals in her hair and what it can do to us. So I just didn't want it anymore and I just so in that I went to weaves and went to wigs and went to wigs at like was close to my natural hair but not not close enough?

I'm like me wearing a wig mint they couldn't burn my natural hair out that actually did have like I don't. I couldn't count how many times, but like I wore my natural hair and they wanted to like just braid it and blow dried it and gave me so much breakage that I had a big chalk and it was frustrating because like you, I stopped wearing I stopped doing perms, like I want to say in twenty twenty ten, twenty eleven, and I just the reason why I stopped wearing perms is because I had leave out and I went to perm my edges and I literally washed my hair out and I didn't have anything to cover my tracks. So it was just like, you know, I can't keep doing this to my hair. And then big hair came out, and I'm scaring all these negative things about putting these chemicals in her hair and what it can do to us. So I just didn't want it anymore and I just so in that I went to weaves and went to wigs and went to wigs at like was close to my natural hair but not not close enough?

Yeah, like or not.

Yeah, like or not.

Even it didn't matter whether or not was close enough to my natural hair, is that it wasn't my natural hair. And I felt like in order to fit into this industry.

Even it didn't matter whether or not was close enough to my natural hair, is that it wasn't my natural hair. And I felt like in order to fit into this industry.

I had to add to me.

I had to add to me.

And what I'm realizing now is that I don't need to, like and if I want to put my wig on, I can, like, yeah, like, I do it everyone.

And what I'm realizing now is that I don't need to, like and if I want to put my wig on, I can, like, yeah, like, I do it everyone.

Both our grandmother's yeah, and all the sisters, the deaconesses in the church. Yes, fantastic about wigs T Yeah, I still yeah, yeah, it's good too. You know Grandma used to be able to put that thing on and boom she was fly.

Both our grandmother's yeah, and all the sisters, the deaconesses in the church. Yes, fantastic about wigs T Yeah, I still yeah, yeah, it's good too. You know Grandma used to be able to put that thing on and boom she was fly.

Yeah hat so it was an accessory. Yes, yeah, I think there was this model. I can't remember her name, but she was well, there have been several models to do this, but this model was like facetiming and like in ig live and just showing her experience during fashion week and how nobody knew how to do her makeup. Nobody knew how to do her hair. And that's how I learned how to do makeup. I have a makeup artist do my makeup. I didn't wake up looking like this. But I have someone who does it. But I had to learn how because in television you would walk into the studio and you could see the face of fright when they knew that, and they start asavy right, and they woul start asking, well, what's your color? Like I don't know because I ain't the makeup artist, you know, Like you tell me what my color is. But how dehumanizing it was to show up and do your job and there literally aren't people there who know what they're They don't know how to do your hair, they don't know how to do your makeup and so and look, I want to be clear too, it is not about the ethnicity of the artists. It is about the artist's ability to be able to do people of other ethnicity. Because I didn't have some black women do me dirty on this makeup, you know. And I've had non black women beat this face, you know, and it does pop it.

Yeah hat so it was an accessory. Yes, yeah, I think there was this model. I can't remember her name, but she was well, there have been several models to do this, but this model was like facetiming and like in ig live and just showing her experience during fashion week and how nobody knew how to do her makeup. Nobody knew how to do her hair. And that's how I learned how to do makeup. I have a makeup artist do my makeup. I didn't wake up looking like this. But I have someone who does it. But I had to learn how because in television you would walk into the studio and you could see the face of fright when they knew that, and they start asavy right, and they woul start asking, well, what's your color? Like I don't know because I ain't the makeup artist, you know, Like you tell me what my color is. But how dehumanizing it was to show up and do your job and there literally aren't people there who know what they're They don't know how to do your hair, they don't know how to do your makeup and so and look, I want to be clear too, it is not about the ethnicity of the artists. It is about the artist's ability to be able to do people of other ethnicity. Because I didn't have some black women do me dirty on this makeup, you know. And I've had non black women beat this face, you know, and it does pop it.

So I think that makes a big difference as we But what's.

So I think that makes a big difference as we But what's.

Crazy is when you ask the question what's different, the fact that that is still happening.

Crazy is when you ask the question what's different, the fact that that is still happening.

It's crazy.

It's crazy.

I mean, Emon talks about that when she started her cosmetics Lang, which was more than thirty years ago about that she's started it because as a model, there wasn't make up her color. Yeah, it was fashion fair. There was Flory Roberts, but rare. Yeah, these was that on set.

I mean, Emon talks about that when she started her cosmetics Lang, which was more than thirty years ago about that she's started it because as a model, there wasn't make up her color. Yeah, it was fashion fair. There was Flory Roberts, but rare. Yeah, these was that on set.

And so she.

And so she.

Started her own line. This is more than thirty years ago. Now there's every color, how many how many makeup lines are in support and alt with thirty colors of Nancy.

Started her own line. This is more than thirty years ago. Now there's every color, how many how many makeup lines are in support and alt with thirty colors of Nancy.

Yes, Nincy really ran point on that.

Yes, Nincy really ran point on that.

Yes, yeah, exposed the industry showing that like they don't cater to dark skins, three shaves or shades for dark skin when or black people, not black people, brown people of color right in general like South Asian. You know, you know it's not enough shades because even sitting here, we're three different shade black women. So, and to your point about showing up on set and not having anyone to do your hair, do your makeup. I've walked in New York Fashion Weeks so many times and almost every time they run from me like they like, like you see the hairstylists like get uncomfortable.

Yes, yeah, exposed the industry showing that like they don't cater to dark skins, three shaves or shades for dark skin when or black people, not black people, brown people of color right in general like South Asian. You know, you know it's not enough shades because even sitting here, we're three different shade black women. So, and to your point about showing up on set and not having anyone to do your hair, do your makeup. I've walked in New York Fashion Weeks so many times and almost every time they run from me like they like, like you see the hairstylists like get uncomfortable.

They start playing with things, yes, on.

They start playing with things, yes, on.

Their on their in their makeup kid knowing saying well you do not have my shade in there. Yeah, it was, So it got to the point where I always kept my makeup on me and moor to the bathroom and think, then I'm you literally usually doing my own hair. I come ready most of the time. That's why I've always I've always known how to do my own hair. So it's just and it just sucks, because how do you call yourself an artist or a professional in an industry but you can't do all hair textures? Yeah, you can't do all skin tones. It just it just doesn't It's insulting.

Their on their in their makeup kid knowing saying well you do not have my shade in there. Yeah, it was, So it got to the point where I always kept my makeup on me and moor to the bathroom and think, then I'm you literally usually doing my own hair. I come ready most of the time. That's why I've always I've always known how to do my own hair. So it's just and it just sucks, because how do you call yourself an artist or a professional in an industry but you can't do all hair textures? Yeah, you can't do all skin tones. It just it just doesn't It's insulting.

I do want to shout out Sergio Hudson because he just gets us. He knows us with his fashion, but also in his makeup room and his I get to sneak backstage during his show fashion Week to say hi and take a picture, and like, people there know what they're doing. They know how to do our makeup, they know how to do our hair. So we love you Sergio for all they.

I do want to shout out Sergio Hudson because he just gets us. He knows us with his fashion, but also in his makeup room and his I get to sneak backstage during his show fashion Week to say hi and take a picture, and like, people there know what they're doing. They know how to do our makeup, they know how to do our hair. So we love you Sergio for all they.

Also I want to shout out Honifa.

Also I want to shout out Honifa.

Yes, I love if.

Yes, I love if.

I walked in Honefa show that she did in DC, and I have never felt so protected, so honored as a model. I walked in and I smelled sprits and and it.

I walked in Honefa show that she did in DC, and I have never felt so protected, so honored as a model. I walked in and I smelled sprits and and it.

Was a bunch of black women.

Was a bunch of black women.

It felt like us.

It felt like us.

It's like us.

It's like us.

Yeah, It's smelt like when you walk into the salon with your mom and you're sitting there and you're waiting for her to get her hair done, hear all the conversations and stuff that I felt so comfortable.

Yeah, It's smelt like when you walk into the salon with your mom and you're sitting there and you're waiting for her to get her hair done, hear all the conversations and stuff that I felt so comfortable.

Well, it was so like divinely black.

Well, it was so like divinely black.

Shout out to Anifa.

Shout out to Anifa.

When we were I had a photo shoot to do and Honefa her team reached out and offered to dress me for the photo shoot. So yeah, I took it as a compliment, but I didn't know she was like, this girl needs some help, so let me help her. But I was honored that she even too great.

When we were I had a photo shoot to do and Honefa her team reached out and offered to dress me for the photo shoot. So yeah, I took it as a compliment, but I didn't know she was like, this girl needs some help, so let me help her. But I was honored that she even too great.

Yeah, take it as she saw.

Yeah, take it as she saw.

You both opportunity each other to like push black women forward and make sure amazing.

You both opportunity each other to like push black women forward and make sure amazing.

She's amazing. Yeah, I love her, I love I love their entire teams.

She's amazing. Yeah, I love her, I love I love their entire teams.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just made me feel good.

Just made me feel good.

Yeah, And that's what you need because at the end of the day, just like when you show up on set, we need to be able to do our job right. I don't want to come into a space where everyone is expected to do their part and I have to.

Yeah, And that's what you need because at the end of the day, just like when you show up on set, we need to be able to do our job right. I don't want to come into a space where everyone is expected to do their part and I have to.

Do my job in your job, in your job, Yeah, because you don't. It's not fair hair.

Do my job in your job, in your job, Yeah, because you don't. It's not fair hair.

So one thing in the way that we've been very celebratory of how beauty standards have changed. But there are some things that I do notice that maybe as I'm getting older, because I'm sure that there was a generation who looked at me when I was younger, like what are these girls doing. I'm sure you look at younger women and you've, you know, seen the changes through time. The lashes now I'm wearing. I am ware of that I do, but I will say I only wear lashes when I'm on air, Like I don't like the caterpillar lashes that are like this, and I see like these young girls wearing them I wear I'm on air, and I noticed you don't have any, and you look beautiful.

So one thing in the way that we've been very celebratory of how beauty standards have changed. But there are some things that I do notice that maybe as I'm getting older, because I'm sure that there was a generation who looked at me when I was younger, like what are these girls doing. I'm sure you look at younger women and you've, you know, seen the changes through time. The lashes now I'm wearing. I am ware of that I do, but I will say I only wear lashes when I'm on air, Like I don't like the caterpillar lashes that are like this, and I see like these young girls wearing them I wear I'm on air, and I noticed you don't have any, and you look beautiful.

So I do feel like maybe I can just well on camera.

So I do feel like maybe I can just well on camera.

Like the makeup.

Like the makeup.

The camera eats up to make yeah, so I look, but I don't.

The camera eats up to make yeah, so I look, but I don't.

I had to. I got like made up like two weeks straight, and I had lashes and full makeup on, and I remember when it all came off, and I just felt like, I don't like how I.

I had to. I got like made up like two weeks straight, and I had lashes and full makeup on, and I remember when it all came off, and I just felt like, I don't like how I.

Look, you know, because you grew accustomed to that.

Look, you know, because you grew accustomed to that.

Yes, So I'm intentional now I don't wear this kind of makeup unless I am on camera doing something. But I do see young girls with like all the things, like the lashes, the different contour, or sometimes it's don't make up, just walking around like this.

Yes, So I'm intentional now I don't wear this kind of makeup unless I am on camera doing something. But I do see young girls with like all the things, like the lashes, the different contour, or sometimes it's don't make up, just walking around like this.

Well because sometimes they are fixed so they.

Well because sometimes they are fixed so they.

Like you can't even see me out your eyes with those lashes.

Like you can't even see me out your eyes with those lashes.

I just wonder are we going too far one?

I just wonder are we going too far one?

Like, how do we bring it back home to like just loving ourselves.

Like, how do we bring it back home to like just loving ourselves.

There's extremes in every industry, you know. So some people are going to wear no lashes, some people are gonna wear natural ash, and some people want to be extravagant, and that's their prerogative. You said something about contouring, though, which it's something that I struggle with a little bit sitting in the makeup chair because I'll sit down and the makeup artists will be excited and he'll be like or they'll be like, we're gonna snatch that nose and we're gonna oh yeah. I like, I don't.

There's extremes in every industry, you know. So some people are going to wear no lashes, some people are gonna wear natural ash, and some people want to be extravagant, and that's their prerogative. You said something about contouring, though, which it's something that I struggle with a little bit sitting in the makeup chair because I'll sit down and the makeup artists will be excited and he'll be like or they'll be like, we're gonna snatch that nose and we're gonna oh yeah. I like, I don't.

I don't.

I don't.

I don't want to widen out my my features. I love my cheekbones, I love lits, I love I love all of the things that my favorite parts of me are the things that come from black people that are you know, indigenous too black.

I don't want to widen out my my features. I love my cheekbones, I love lits, I love I love all of the things that my favorite parts of me are the things that come from black people that are you know, indigenous too black.

I don't know if indigenous would be the word.

I don't know if indigenous would be the word.

But y.

But y.

Our DNA.

Our DNA.

And the other issue is that we have these features naturally and then when you put them on another person, it's like they.

And the other issue is that we have these features naturally and then when you put them on another person, it's like they.

They're the ones who at the shine for it.

They're the ones who at the shine for it.

I can say the Kardashian family an entire living all black features that they get surgically manufactured. And we're walking around here with all this natural beauty, full lips wide and I was like, Beyonce, are Jackson's.

I can say the Kardashian family an entire living all black features that they get surgically manufactured. And we're walking around here with all this natural beauty, full lips wide and I was like, Beyonce, are Jackson's.

Five nostrils hips ass everything.

Five nostrils hips ass everything.

Way before the kardashi Yeah, this is the trend that's gone on through the generations. I mean, think about self tanning, so you can get the color that we are already, but then our color is hated. So this, this trend of self hatred is insane. I want to tell you when I was young, I was a model, and I remember sitting in a makeup artist chair when I was in college and the makeup art this was this was the time of and they called themselves at the time of the Queen. You know, so this this queen was doing my makeup and got to the contour.

Way before the kardashi Yeah, this is the trend that's gone on through the generations. I mean, think about self tanning, so you can get the color that we are already, but then our color is hated. So this, this trend of self hatred is insane. I want to tell you when I was young, I was a model, and I remember sitting in a makeup artist chair when I was in college and the makeup art this was this was the time of and they called themselves at the time of the Queen. You know, so this this queen was doing my makeup and got to the contour.

So eighties makeup you know, it was very severe.

So eighties makeup you know, it was very severe.

Yeah, put this major contour on my nose and say, girl, if I have to spend this much time contouring your nose.

Yeah, put this major contour on my nose and say, girl, if I have to spend this much time contouring your nose.

You need to get a nose job.

You need to get a nose job.

Wow, you see my nose. And I was just so grateful for my mother, who's like, that person's crazy. You're not getting a nose job. Your nose is beautiful. But this was from a black queen. It comes from within the culture. It comes outside of the culture because beauty standards still are based on European staff.

Wow, you see my nose. And I was just so grateful for my mother, who's like, that person's crazy. You're not getting a nose job. Your nose is beautiful. But this was from a black queen. It comes from within the culture. It comes outside of the culture because beauty standards still are based on European staff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And even as we mentioned the designers who support us, there are plenty more people who don't even see us, and what they understand is something that doesn't look like us, you know, And that part, I think requires us to connect to our culture, to connect to the grannies, to connect to the church, to connect to whatever those cultural foundational points are that remind us that we're beautiful, the remind us that we count, because if we don't do that, it is so easy, especially in your industry as a model, and I wanted to ask you so as a curvy model, yes, because now we live in this.

And even as we mentioned the designers who support us, there are plenty more people who don't even see us, and what they understand is something that doesn't look like us, you know, And that part, I think requires us to connect to our culture, to connect to the grannies, to connect to the church, to connect to whatever those cultural foundational points are that remind us that we're beautiful, the remind us that we count, because if we don't do that, it is so easy, especially in your industry as a model, and I wanted to ask you so as a curvy model, yes, because now we live in this.

World of inclusivity.

World of inclusivity.

You know, when I was at Essence, I ran fashion at Essence many years ago, and Susan Taylor told us we had to have models who were from size six to size twenty six, and I was like, for real, And we had to learn how to dress women that size when there were no samples, there weren't there was nothing. We had to get it made. We had to get it made. Now it's understood that you have to be inclusive. Yet I want to know what is it like when you when you are part of a job when maybe you're the only curvy girl on you know, in the dressing room, when you are when you know their size two four six and you how are you treated? How do you feel? Do you feel honored?

You know, when I was at Essence, I ran fashion at Essence many years ago, and Susan Taylor told us we had to have models who were from size six to size twenty six, and I was like, for real, And we had to learn how to dress women that size when there were no samples, there weren't there was nothing. We had to get it made. We had to get it made. Now it's understood that you have to be inclusive. Yet I want to know what is it like when you when you are part of a job when maybe you're the only curvy girl on you know, in the dressing room, when you are when you know their size two four six and you how are you treated? How do you feel? Do you feel honored?

You know what all of the above was happening.

You know what all of the above was happening.

I think it depends on the client.

I think it depends on the client.

I think having all of these others or having you know, a bigger sum of other sizes. When over sixty seven percent of the email population in the United States is oversized fourteen, I think over sized sixteen actually, right, So it feels performative a lot of times to be tokenized in that way. Yeah, and to feel like I'm just checking off a box. They if they get me, they get curve or plus size. They get black, they may get natural hair. When we can have all of these things in different people. But it's like they're like, let's check one box at one time and then have all the rest of the skinny white models. The fashion industry is based off of the opinions of within the white and the wealthy, so it's.

I think having all of these others or having you know, a bigger sum of other sizes. When over sixty seven percent of the email population in the United States is oversized fourteen, I think over sized sixteen actually, right, So it feels performative a lot of times to be tokenized in that way. Yeah, and to feel like I'm just checking off a box. They if they get me, they get curve or plus size. They get black, they may get natural hair. When we can have all of these things in different people. But it's like they're like, let's check one box at one time and then have all the rest of the skinny white models. The fashion industry is based off of the opinions of within the white and the wealthy, so it's.

Like that then the white and the wealthy is it is?

Like that then the white and the wealthy is it is?

And unfortunately, like you were saying about beauty standards, that's what we based our things off of. You were saying earlier about the notes. Obviously, how many women back at that time, black women back at that time went and got their nose snatched. And it's like, I wish you didn't do that.

And unfortunately, like you were saying about beauty standards, that's what we based our things off of. You were saying earlier about the notes. Obviously, how many women back at that time, black women back at that time went and got their nose snatched. And it's like, I wish you didn't do that.

If I didn't have my mother, I probably would have. I wanted to rise in that industry, and she's like, girl.

If I didn't have my mother, I probably would have. I wanted to rise in that industry, and she's like, girl.

And I'm happy she told you not to. But also I also don't want to make it seem like anyone doing something because they want to do it is a problem.

And I'm happy she told you not to. But also I also don't want to make it seem like anyone doing something because they want to do it is a problem.

But I have to look at the root of the issue.

But I have to look at the root of the issue.

If you are doing it because the world is telling you that who you are isn't beautiful, and that's you know, to I know, when off topic a little bit, but to my hair. When I realized that the reason why I'm continuously putting this wig on is because I feel like me a la carte isn't enough, I had to snatch it off. Yes, I had to, Like I had to prove to myself that my beauty comes from me, my culture, you know, the women behind me who have like told me how beautiful I am. And when I look in the mirror and I see I always say that I need to not see myself the way the world sees me, and not even see myself the way I see me. Sometimes I need to see myself the way God sees me. Yeah, you know that's that's.

If you are doing it because the world is telling you that who you are isn't beautiful, and that's you know, to I know, when off topic a little bit, but to my hair. When I realized that the reason why I'm continuously putting this wig on is because I feel like me a la carte isn't enough, I had to snatch it off. Yes, I had to, Like I had to prove to myself that my beauty comes from me, my culture, you know, the women behind me who have like told me how beautiful I am. And when I look in the mirror and I see I always say that I need to not see myself the way the world sees me, and not even see myself the way I see me. Sometimes I need to see myself the way God sees me. Yeah, you know that's that's.

Like the main thing.

Like the main thing.

But that's but so when I show up in these spaces, like I have to be so secure in myself to know that even though I may be in here in a tokenized way, when I show up, a little black girl is going to turn on the TV or flick through a magazine and see someone who represents her. And then on top of that, it's my duty as maybe the only to leave the door open for the size twenty six that comes in, for the for the girl with short natural hair to come in, or just anybody who's part of a marginalized group that understands what it's like to not have their beauty represent it.

But that's but so when I show up in these spaces, like I have to be so secure in myself to know that even though I may be in here in a tokenized way, when I show up, a little black girl is going to turn on the TV or flick through a magazine and see someone who represents her. And then on top of that, it's my duty as maybe the only to leave the door open for the size twenty six that comes in, for the for the girl with short natural hair to come in, or just anybody who's part of a marginalized group that understands what it's like to not have their beauty represent it.

So that's that's always.

So that's that's always.

That's like your Viola Davis moment. Remember that, do you remember the scene what was your show called took off that that is like the most that is like the most classic scene in television for black women. And she revealed she took she had taken off her makeup, so it was just her, your beautiful self. And then she took off that wig and you saw her with the with no hair.

That's like your Viola Davis moment. Remember that, do you remember the scene what was your show called took off that that is like the most that is like the most classic scene in television for black women. And she revealed she took she had taken off her makeup, so it was just her, your beautiful self. And then she took off that wig and you saw her with the with no hair.

Two.

Two.

I love her, so I need to read her books.

I love her, so I need to read her books.

So it's there, it is.

So it's there, it is.

It is proof that from wherever you come, you can go wherever you want, and that she was brave enough to fully tell her story, which you know, people, people, what that's you because what happens, I think is anybody who's on stage, whatever the stage is, so all of us.

It is proof that from wherever you come, you can go wherever you want, and that she was brave enough to fully tell her story, which you know, people, people, what that's you because what happens, I think is anybody who's on stage, whatever the stage is, so all of us.

This is a stage where.

This is a stage where.

Whatever stages we're on, people see folks on stage and think you're perfect, you're rich, You've got something I don't have, and therefore I can look up to you because you're on stage. Viola took herself off the stage and said, no, this is I've had a life, yeah, with all kinds of challenges that you could never imagine. And look at what my life is now. This is my whole life. It's not like this, this is over. It's just my whole life.

Whatever stages we're on, people see folks on stage and think you're perfect, you're rich, You've got something I don't have, and therefore I can look up to you because you're on stage. Viola took herself off the stage and said, no, this is I've had a life, yeah, with all kinds of challenges that you could never imagine. And look at what my life is now. This is my whole life. It's not like this, this is over. It's just my whole life.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

What I love though about that book, and I think it relates to the conversation around beauty standards is the journey home to ourselves and how we go out here in the world and the world tries to define us, and it's you know, when you know who you are that somebody can't take that, this industry can't take it away from you. I also thought it was interesting when you were oh no, that was you, Harry, when you were saying about how it's comes from within the culture and outside the culture. So I don't know if you guys, ever, highly recommend Tanahasee Coast's latest book, The Message, and he talks about going to Africa, and this is a really interesting thing and I'm still processing it.

What I love though about that book, and I think it relates to the conversation around beauty standards is the journey home to ourselves and how we go out here in the world and the world tries to define us, and it's you know, when you know who you are that somebody can't take that, this industry can't take it away from you. I also thought it was interesting when you were oh no, that was you, Harry, when you were saying about how it's comes from within the culture and outside the culture. So I don't know if you guys, ever, highly recommend Tanahasee Coast's latest book, The Message, and he talks about going to Africa, and this is a really interesting thing and I'm still processing it.

I don't quite know how to feel about it. But essentially, the women.

I don't quite know how to feel about it. But essentially, the women.

In Africa, like black women here, black people here in America center so much in the globe where we go, the world follows. We are fourteen percent of people here in this country.

In Africa, like black women here, black people here in America center so much in the globe where we go, the world follows. We are fourteen percent of people here in this country.

But we drive.

But we drive.

Culture and conversations world and so we have been our self love how we view ourselves. We have been penetrated by white folks and whiteness, and so as we navigate this space of beauty standards and what we consider to be beautiful from everything from like you know, hair weed, blonde, hair weed, last is all of it. When you go to Africa, there are some women who see as we drive fashion, they are adopting that culture too, And so he writes about it, and it's like, it's interesting because we going back to the motherland to celebrate who we are, and they have the benefit of not living along their oppressors, not living alongside their colonizers, not living alongside I would say, some homicidal mania that helped create this country here, and yet they have been colonized.

Culture and conversations world and so we have been our self love how we view ourselves. We have been penetrated by white folks and whiteness, and so as we navigate this space of beauty standards and what we consider to be beautiful from everything from like you know, hair weed, blonde, hair weed, last is all of it. When you go to Africa, there are some women who see as we drive fashion, they are adopting that culture too, And so he writes about it, and it's like, it's interesting because we going back to the motherland to celebrate who we are, and they have the benefit of not living along their oppressors, not living alongside their colonizers, not living alongside I would say, some homicidal mania that helped create this country here, and yet they have been colonized.

In some way.

In some way.

I was about to say, the mentality is still that skin whitening things is so big. And so I live in Harlem and basically what it's called little Synagogue, and when I listen to some of the folks talk about what their women are doing back home, so many people are destroying their skin by whitening it. They're not white over there, but that comes from over that comes from the States too, that this why are we even here because somebody stole us from there. So if you go back and look at our history, you understand how convoluted it is, how hard it is to fully embrace our beauty. I still talk to women today who are dark brown skin, darker than any of us, who have issues. They still feel like they are looked at, not seen, that they don't feel beautiful, and I'm looking at them, going your skin, it's so gorgeous talking about Yeah, but there are many many women, professionals, people at the top of their career. If you take off the mess and hear how they feel about how they look, we still see many exquisitely dark skinned people who don't feel exquisite.

I was about to say, the mentality is still that skin whitening things is so big. And so I live in Harlem and basically what it's called little Synagogue, and when I listen to some of the folks talk about what their women are doing back home, so many people are destroying their skin by whitening it. They're not white over there, but that comes from over that comes from the States too, that this why are we even here because somebody stole us from there. So if you go back and look at our history, you understand how convoluted it is, how hard it is to fully embrace our beauty. I still talk to women today who are dark brown skin, darker than any of us, who have issues. They still feel like they are looked at, not seen, that they don't feel beautiful, and I'm looking at them, going your skin, it's so gorgeous talking about Yeah, but there are many many women, professionals, people at the top of their career. If you take off the mess and hear how they feel about how they look, we still see many exquisitely dark skinned people who don't feel exquisite.

I think a part of that, though, is I don't know what it's going to take to change it. But I know in the hip hop genre, which of course drives fashion to you know, like all these industries intersect and you hear, I don't want to lay it because it's not I'm not blaming or bashing black men.

I think a part of that, though, is I don't know what it's going to take to change it. But I know in the hip hop genre, which of course drives fashion to you know, like all these industries intersect and you hear, I don't want to lay it because it's not I'm not blaming or bashing black men.

Brothers. I love y'all.

Brothers. I love y'all.

Also, don't take this the wrong way, but a lot of black men rappers will rap about, you know, women who don't look like us, you know, or women who are fair skinned. You know, I got a red bone right right, and so well, even if it is like if some rap videos feature darker skinned women, it's a lot of European features, Like you might be dark skin, but you have race ambiguous hair, or thin nose or thinner lips, like it's something about you that makes you more palatable. And I just wonder, like, well, what your mama look like, with your sisters look like, what your cousins look like. Do you look at them and not see their beauty? So I don't know what it's going to take. It's not male rappers faults, but somebody has to be a part of making that change. And we have to declare ourselves beautiful, you know, despite all those things too.

Also, don't take this the wrong way, but a lot of black men rappers will rap about, you know, women who don't look like us, you know, or women who are fair skinned. You know, I got a red bone right right, and so well, even if it is like if some rap videos feature darker skinned women, it's a lot of European features, Like you might be dark skin, but you have race ambiguous hair, or thin nose or thinner lips, like it's something about you that makes you more palatable. And I just wonder, like, well, what your mama look like, with your sisters look like, what your cousins look like. Do you look at them and not see their beauty? So I don't know what it's going to take. It's not male rappers faults, but somebody has to be a part of making that change. And we have to declare ourselves beautiful, you know, despite all those things too.

I think it's all by design as well.

I think it's all by design as well.

I think, you know, the powers that be are running the music industry or running fashion, running the way that unfortunately like depicting the way that we see ourselves. And if this is happening in the States with US Black Americans and our culture is being pushed to not push but you know.

I think, you know, the powers that be are running the music industry or running fashion, running the way that unfortunately like depicting the way that we see ourselves. And if this is happening in the States with US Black Americans and our culture is being pushed to not push but you know.

Swallowed up by swallowed up but.

Swallowed up by swallowed up but.

By you know, African culture or different African cultures, it's only right that they start bleaching their skin because we don't see the beauty in our skin here, or because they told us that our skin isn't beautiful. So if they're following everything that we do, it's gonna take I'm not gonna say that it's gonna take just African American people believing in themselves and seeing our own beauty to change the minds over there. But if we are always on the forefront, then it is our responsibilities.

By you know, African culture or different African cultures, it's only right that they start bleaching their skin because we don't see the beauty in our skin here, or because they told us that our skin isn't beautiful. So if they're following everything that we do, it's gonna take I'm not gonna say that it's gonna take just African American people believing in themselves and seeing our own beauty to change the minds over there. But if we are always on the forefront, then it is our responsibilities.

So while we know that the media is the one.

So while we know that the media is the one.

Who are the ones who are telling us that we aren't beautiful and that black men don't value us and that they want a long hair, thick redbone like how Ween says, or we have to stand up against that. But also I see a change in it. You see a lot more artists who are pushing dark skinned women with dark with black features, full features in the natural hair, in their videos and their music. You're hearing more artists like talk about like how they're proud of their blackness. So I think, while yes, like that those artists do exist who like who have their own internalized anti blackness, we can also highlight the ones who are proud of black women.

Who are the ones who are telling us that we aren't beautiful and that black men don't value us and that they want a long hair, thick redbone like how Ween says, or we have to stand up against that. But also I see a change in it. You see a lot more artists who are pushing dark skinned women with dark with black features, full features in the natural hair, in their videos and their music. You're hearing more artists like talk about like how they're proud of their blackness. So I think, while yes, like that those artists do exist who like who have their own internalized anti blackness, we can also highlight the ones who are proud of black women.

Yeah, that's who celebrate black people, like.

Yeah, that's who celebrate black people, like.

Lucky Lucky Day.

Lucky Lucky Day.

It's a video a while ago, I want to say, pre twenty twenty, where like I just remember turning it on in this beautiful, dark skinned black woman had this like afro and she was just beautiful and sexy and confident, and she had this black man who's just as dark and just as beautiful and just as confident. And the black love that they like created first. So you know, it just resonated with me. Yeah, and I feel like it'll teach people that beauty is not a one note thing, especially when it comes to black women, Like we're all beautiful, like in general.

It's a video a while ago, I want to say, pre twenty twenty, where like I just remember turning it on in this beautiful, dark skinned black woman had this like afro and she was just beautiful and sexy and confident, and she had this black man who's just as dark and just as beautiful and just as confident. And the black love that they like created first. So you know, it just resonated with me. Yeah, and I feel like it'll teach people that beauty is not a one note thing, especially when it comes to black women, Like we're all beautiful, like in general.

Like I feel like we are chasing the filtered highlight reel of people's lives and we think, oh, well, this is what you look like. You know. I when I post pictures, I will say I go on ig with nothing on, you know, because I do want people to see me. But sometimes when I post pictures, that Paris filter just makes it look.

Like I feel like we are chasing the filtered highlight reel of people's lives and we think, oh, well, this is what you look like. You know. I when I post pictures, I will say I go on ig with nothing on, you know, because I do want people to see me. But sometimes when I post pictures, that Paris filter just makes it look.

A little slaughter.

A little slaughter.

Yeah, yes, it's a little shinewaty, But like I certainly you know, don't look like that in real life. And I have to constantly when I wake up in the morning with nothing, with none of this, like I spend some time with myself to look in the mirror, s like this makes sure you like itself.

Yeah, yes, it's a little shinewaty, But like I certainly you know, don't look like that in real life. And I have to constantly when I wake up in the morning with nothing, with none of this, like I spend some time with myself to look in the mirror, s like this makes sure you like itself.

We like ourselves, saying okay, then let's go and we love ourselves.

We like ourselves, saying okay, then let's go and we love ourselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have to be intentional about it. I didn't grow up with social media, and so I look at these young girls who that's all they have every sec it's awful for them. When you were in the industry, there was no social media.

I have to be intentional about it. I didn't grow up with social media, and so I look at these young girls who that's all they have every sec it's awful for them. When you were in the industry, there was no social media.

Social media is I mean I started at the magazine in the eighties, has meant so much in that And I really attribute this to Susan Taylor. Her she traveled all over the country all the time to be with the reader and she would come back to our editorial meetings and tell us who she met and what she looked like and what she talked about. And so we got to meet people through her vision and understand that this is who we serve. And it was the every black woman who is excellent, who is living her potential or who wants to. And I think that's our job now to each of us who can see you know when when when I walk down the street and let's see a sister who looks good. I compliment her all the time, and sometimes they're like, you're talking to me, but yes, I am.

Social media is I mean I started at the magazine in the eighties, has meant so much in that And I really attribute this to Susan Taylor. Her she traveled all over the country all the time to be with the reader and she would come back to our editorial meetings and tell us who she met and what she looked like and what she talked about. And so we got to meet people through her vision and understand that this is who we serve. And it was the every black woman who is excellent, who is living her potential or who wants to. And I think that's our job now to each of us who can see you know when when when I walk down the street and let's see a sister who looks good. I compliment her all the time, and sometimes they're like, you're talking to me, but yes, I am.

As black women, that's literally.

As black women, that's literally.

There's like video circulating on TikTok where like a little white girl or somebody who's non black gets complimented by a Black woman, and it's something about like the power behind our voices in general, Like it just makes you feel good when another black woman tells me I look good, Like I know I ain't.

There's like video circulating on TikTok where like a little white girl or somebody who's non black gets complimented by a Black woman, and it's something about like the power behind our voices in general, Like it just makes you feel good when another black woman tells me I look good, Like I know I ain't.

Telling you that.

Telling you that.

I know she's telling it.

I know she's telling it.

And by the way, I'm glad you said that because I say it to all people.

And by the way, I'm glad you said that because I say it to all people.

It's not just the black women.

It's not just the black women.

I say I look for the beauty in people and call it out because it makes you feel good that someone is acknowledging the greatness in you. You asked something earlier that I wanted to double back to this eyelash thing, especially with our young people. So as a mature woman, when I see it, I'm like, oh MG, I don't want to see that. It's too much. But then I have a daughter's about to turn twenty one. She's not so much doing the lashes, but what she was doing is like the dramatic eyeliner, you know, like the cat with different colors, you know, not now, a few years ago, right, And I think we need to give them some grace. They're having fun. Young people experiment, they're having fun. A lash is nothing. You can take it off. It's not the end of the world. I think we even though I don't necessarily like some of the choices.

I say I look for the beauty in people and call it out because it makes you feel good that someone is acknowledging the greatness in you. You asked something earlier that I wanted to double back to this eyelash thing, especially with our young people. So as a mature woman, when I see it, I'm like, oh MG, I don't want to see that. It's too much. But then I have a daughter's about to turn twenty one. She's not so much doing the lashes, but what she was doing is like the dramatic eyeliner, you know, like the cat with different colors, you know, not now, a few years ago, right, And I think we need to give them some grace. They're having fun. Young people experiment, they're having fun. A lash is nothing. You can take it off. It's not the end of the world. I think we even though I don't necessarily like some of the choices.

That people make.

That people make.

I just have fun.

I just have fun.

Girl.

Girl.

Now, when you go to a job interview, take that off? Also, do they have to because it depends upon the job. I understand that, But.

Now, when you go to a job interview, take that off? Also, do they have to because it depends upon the job. I understand that, But.

Does a lash take away their intellectual capacity?

Does a lash take away their intellectual capacity?

Like, here's where I'm old school. Here's here's where I'm old school.

Like, here's where I'm old school. Here's here's where I'm old school.

And you know, a big part of my work is teaching people how to present themselves.

And you know, a big part of my work is teaching people how to present themselves.

So I'm old school. I admit it.

So I'm old school. I admit it.

And I think that if whatever you are wearing takes away from a person's ability to see you, to hear, your intelligence, for your power to come through. If it is a distraction, leave it at home. Why bring a distraction with you? I just don't think it's a smart thing to do. It is not to say that you should come as a cookie cutter of anything. I don't mean that, but like if you have on purple lipstick and all I can see are your lips and I can't I can't even hear what you're saying because I'm mesmerized by your mouth saying with the lashes that are touching. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, Or a skirt that is so short that all I can't help but want to look up your skirt, you know, Or something that's so low that all, even if you don't mean to, your eye goes to cleavage. I think that's a distraction. So I think we should be strategic and how we present ourselves so that whatever our goal is, we figure out how to reach our goal strategically.

And I think that if whatever you are wearing takes away from a person's ability to see you, to hear, your intelligence, for your power to come through. If it is a distraction, leave it at home. Why bring a distraction with you? I just don't think it's a smart thing to do. It is not to say that you should come as a cookie cutter of anything. I don't mean that, but like if you have on purple lipstick and all I can see are your lips and I can't I can't even hear what you're saying because I'm mesmerized by your mouth saying with the lashes that are touching. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, Or a skirt that is so short that all I can't help but want to look up your skirt, you know, Or something that's so low that all, even if you don't mean to, your eye goes to cleavage. I think that's a distraction. So I think we should be strategic and how we present ourselves so that whatever our goal is, we figure out how to reach our goal strategically.

That's all I'm saying.

That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, I understand this strategic part.

Yeah, I understand this strategic part.

Especially, I feel like, while I while I do get that, I think that people are going to have to choose what strategy is best for them if they feel like this thing is so a part of their identity and they want to show up. Whether because I feel like people said that black hair was distracting. We can't wear our corn rows, we can't wear afros because it's distracting.

Especially, I feel like, while I while I do get that, I think that people are going to have to choose what strategy is best for them if they feel like this thing is so a part of their identity and they want to show up. Whether because I feel like people said that black hair was distracting. We can't wear our corn rows, we can't wear afros because it's distracting.

I used to I used to work.

I used to I used to work.

For TSA for a long time, and I used to wear my hair big and curly, and they said it would distract from the uniform.

For TSA for a long time, and I used to wear my hair big and curly, and they said it would distract from the uniform.

But this is just me.

But this is just me.

And even if it wasn't their hair on my head, it's their hair that's on my head and.

And even if it wasn't their hair on my head, it's their hair that's on my head and.

I can't do that now.

I can't do that now.

So I'm with you.

So I'm with you.