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It's a Numbers Game: Unveiling the Complex World of Jeffrey Epstein with Vicky Ward

Published Jul 14, 2025, 12:00 PM

In this episode, Ryan is joined by groundbreaking journalist Vicky Ward as she delves into the intricate and controversial life of Jeffrey Epstein. From his complex relationships with powerful figures to the dark truths behind his infamous scandals, Vicky provides an in-depth analysis of Epstein's world. Discover the untold stories and the societal implications of his actions in this compelling episode. It's a Numbers Game is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday. 

Check out Vicky's NEW Book 'The Idaho Four' HERE

Email Ryan your questions HERE

Welcome back to a numbers game at Ryan Gradoweski. Happy Monday, everybody. I'm excited that you're all here. So, if you're a loyal listener of this podcast, I mostly stick to conversation with elections or some battleground election stuff or some issue stuff. I don't. I try hard not to chase fads because I think that that's a losing game. I see what's on social media, but I don't participate very often, and a lot of people who do podcasts want to make their audience comfortable. They want to regurgitate what they already believe. I try to make my audience as informed as possible with data. That being said, I'm going to break all those rules on this episode because if you follow my social media for some time, you know that I am a crime junkie. I read true crime, I listen to it. I absorb far too much of it, and sometimes I'll catch myself at two am still up thinking, you know what tonight's to night. I'm going to crack the job be an Ramsey case. I'm going to do it by wikipeding the you know the shit of this campaign out of this case, and I'm going to figure out everything, it never happens. But I know there's like a delusion, so I'm very well aware how crazy it is. But like most Americans, I find true crime fascinating, and I have found the Jeffrey Epstein case fascinating. I mean, I'm only human because not only does it deal with someone who truly is a mystery when it comes to everything but the crime. The crime is pretty simple to understand. But the mystery is the person and why this person was surrounded by all these very very very important people by from everyone from princes and kings and prime ministers and presidents, true billionaires and entrepreneurs and lawyers and scientists. As many of you know, last week and President Trump's administration, that there was no Epstein's list of people he was blackmailing, There was no that he did in fact kill himself in prison, and the President Trump himself said, why are you still talking about Epstein? People were outraged by what Trump said and still very curious. Search engines reported that Epstein's name, along with the word Trump, increased by twelve hundred percent after Trump made those comments. From the week prior, it was the number one search thing in connection to President Trump. More than Eli Musk, more than tariffs, more than anything. Epstein became the topic. He had a Streisian effect. By trying to not make it the topic, he made of the topic. People are calling for Trump's administration to release the full Epstein file, something the administration is refusing to do. They're basically saying the case is closed. Ironically, one of these people calling for the full release of the file is Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon, which many people do not remember or know, is that in twenty nineteen, before he killed himself in him before he was arrested, Bannon had a he might have been arrested, but he didn't kill himsel yet obviously, But before he died, Bannon had a fifteen hour recorded interview with Epstein that he has never released in all these years. He said he was going to make a documentary about it, but he's never released these fifteen hours of videos. And he's one of the people sitting there and saying, you got to release you know, you got to release the full Epstein file, and he has not released these very important videos. Now I think lost in the headlines, but the tru administrations claimed that there was no official list. I think well, I think what they were saying was like, there's no excel file. There's no excel file of the people who was blackmailing. There were clearly people that he was pure curing young girls too, right, That's there's no question that Prince Andrew seemed to be or allegedly Prince Andrew was getting young girls to have sexual encounters with him, and he was just one of possibly many's. But that's the most obvious one, and it wasn't because you know Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew so much in commic that were getting tea and then they said, hey, what are you doing this weekend? Let's go to my island. I think also lost in this conversation and lost in the confusion. But whatever happened to so much of Epstein's stuff, Like for the Epstein case, there was there was a case where Epstein and we may never know this, but there was a case when the FBI went and rated the island and the search warrant did not include what was in the safe, but they had said the FBI agent, so they saw tapes in the case and the safe, and when they went back there several weeks later, all the tapes were destroyed or gone or missing, whatever, something happened to them. What happened all his money? Webent his stuff, I mean webent to his client stuff. There was other things that the FBI got a hold of. There's some things that the FBI never got a hold of that somebody must have somewhere. And the fact that the trum administration is trying to run away from this issue is making people more curious. Comedian Andrew Schultz, who had Trump on his podcast, He's got a huge podcast. He had Trump on last time before the election. He went on a TI rate. He was screaming about that. You know, people like AOC were a real America first people. Because Trump won't release the tapes and he's lying to us. I have two major thoughts on this. First, there are too many people in the Trump orbit who jumped on every conspiracy about Epstein and a lot of other things that had no proof. And I'm sorry, but cash buttell spend a lot of time on podcasts that promoted a lot of nonsense to people, things that were I mean, he was at times he was on podcasts that were just inches away from saying JFK Junior was alive and would be Trump's running mate. He promote a lot of stuff to people who have, for lack of a better term, anti social behavioral issues where they don't trust anything, and some of them have a right not to trust some stuff that the government does and some stuff that well people do. I get it, but they feed that. They fed the beast, and now he is the beast and he has to answer to it. He was extremely irresponsible as a private citizen to build a fan base. This happens in online culture a lot. It happens in right wing culture. A lot bluffs does it too. They say outrageous things, they say things that aren't true. They lie to their audience over and over and over again to get more followers to feed the worst narratives. On the other side, I see it from both sides. It happens everywhere. It's still wrong and it's still irresponsible. And you live by the conspiracy theory, you die by the conspiracy theory. Right. Not every rich person's a Satanist, not everyone's a child molester, not everyone's everything. Secondly, and I don't think that this is necessarily right to say, but I'll say this is that Epstein was way too close to too many powerful people and entities that to completely expose them. We're not going to completely expose all these people that he was around. There's just no way. We're sixty something years since the jfk assassination and we're just finding out about the CIA's relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald, and everyone in that case is dead, Like I mean, there might be one person in a nursing home, but everyone else is gone. And they still won't tell us the unredacted truth about that case, you know. So the idea that they were going to tell you everyone about Jeffrey Epstein on all of his clients, but everyone's still alive or most of them are still alive, I think was a pipe dream. I think they shouldn't have promised that when it was definitely never gonna happen. Now I don't know everything about the Jeffrey Epstein case, and I have a lot of questions, like how did he get all of his money? Why was he around these people? Remember, not everyone around him was suber wealthy, Not everyone around him was a billionaire, Not everyone around him was a child moluster, Not everyone was a scientist or a president. They all flocked to him, though, was it just that wealth invites more wealth and power invites more power and they all had to be going to this island. I think for some people it was probable that they were in it to procure sexual advances from young girls, but not all of them. Something else is involved, in my opinion that I don't think is going to answer be answered. And also, why is just Lane Maxwell then in prison if the Epstein file didn't exist. I think the question over what just Lane Maxwell knows and what she doesn't know and what she's saying what she's not saying is really the bigger question, because she is the only living person we have who can still speak the truth, and she's not speaking, and I think that she brings all off a lot of other questions that people should have. I don't know these answers, and I don't want to pedal conspiracy theories to get clicks and listens. I think that's very irresponsible and I'd probably be a very much bigger personality if I did do that, but I'm not going to. But with me on today's episode is someone who knows a lot more about this than I do, who spent time with Jeffrey Epstein. She's not a household name, but her name is Vicky Ward, and in March two thousand and three, Vicky wrote a groundbreaking piece for Vanity Fair called The Talent of mister Epstein. This was before the Palm Beach Police was investigating him on the subject of the matter. Vicky was the first journalist to really spend significant time with him and to ask a question over his money and his connections and who were these young girls. It got so bad that the outlet that she was writing for at the time, Vanity Fair, took out some of the most salacious comments because Epstein was threatening to sue and Vicky had to take up personal security for her life. I think she was pregnant at the time because she felt threatened by Epstein. She knows a lot on this matter, far more than I do, and I want to bring on as my next guest to talk really about Jeffrey Epstein, who he was as the person, and some of the questions we still think about today. Coming up next, Vicky Ward is a groundbreaking journalist and the author of the new book The Idaho For Vicky, thank you for being on here. I want to talk about your book, but I want to talk about Epstein. First, you were the first journalist story this big profile back in two thousand and three about Epstein, and you've since said in multip interviews that the Epstein story is two stories. It's a very simple story about the sex scandal with the underage girls and the complicated story about his relationship with all these people. One thing I found interesting about your past comments, as you said that there's no evidence that Epstein started these sexual encounters before his meeting with Gilaine Maxwell. She was a very wealthy woman who became very poor. He was a very poor man and become very wealthy. Is it a situation of the two people meeting. Do you think that created the situation that the care of the created scenario, or was Gizlaine had a bigger role than people think of just being like a.

Madam Brian, great question, I think I think thank you for having me. I think it's a it's a complicated answer. I think Gilenn Maxwell, you know, was had a very sophisticated European upbringing, and so I think that she probably came from a background that a lot of Americans, you know, where the sexual mores would have been difficult for a lot of Americans to swallow she, you know, so that there is that she was also, as I have reported, tragically desperate after her father died. I use the word tragically because she you know, she was a very accomplished, well educated woman with a massive international rolodex, who had the abilities to go out and make something of herself. But she believed, largely due to having had a megalomaniacal far, that she was completely dependent.

On a man.

And the problem was that that man turned out to be Jeffrey Epstein. And in order to keep his interest, you know, this was not a man who was likely to be monogamous. I think she pushed, you know, and I've reported this. She kept his interest by sort of pushing closer to the edge sexually, and that began a slippery slope. I mean, we know that she was involved, I mean in the encounters in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands with underage women, that she went out and got the women for him. It is also true that Jeffrey Epstein, as you know, was heavily involved with scientists. I mean, one of the reasons he was so clever at crossing the narrative of Jeffrey Epstein that sort of protected him for so long was that, you know, he made all his money and then he went and courted academics at Harvard and elsewhere, and he was very interested in eugenics and cloning. And I do know from my reporting that he believed He said this to one of his friends who I interviewed several times.

A guy called Stuart Pivart.

He believed that it was it was society that was out of step in not condoning men having sex with children, and that you know, in that when society evolved to catch up with him, they would they would stand corrected. So you've got so you've got two things going on. You've got a man living in a bubble who believes the problem is with everybody else, not with him. And you've got a woman who comes from a slightly different background who's desperate to do anything to keep his protection, you know, his financial protection, but to keep his interest.

So it's both things.

What I think is very interesting about this case specifically, is the fact that not everyone who was around him was or seems to be, or even has been accused of being a pedophile. Not everyone around him is incredibly rich, Not everyone around him is a scientist. Is it that power and influence increased his orbit. Once you have one person, you'll have fifty, which you've seen in other big profile cases. Or was he pure curing these people to be in his orbit because they were for a greater purpose in his world, because we don't know really what he did to earn all this money, don't know where the money really went afterwards, all all the other stuff. Was it just the fact that he wanted to have everyone's card like a Truman Compote type, or was it that he was procuring them for specific purposes.

So Jeffrey Epstein understood a fundamental truth about very wealthy people is that you know, when you're at the top of the food chain, there always there's always something you can't get. And his cleverness, if you want to call it, that was very quickly sizing up, for example, what would Bill Gates on the richest men in the world, What could Jeffrey Epstein offer him that he couldn't get elsewhere?

And the answer was Jeffrey Epstein's Rolodex.

Because Bill Gates wanted to scale the Giving pledge and he wanted to meet other billionaires.

That was the whole point of it.

And you know, Epsy understood many things about very rich people. He understood, for example, that if they get defrauded, they don't go to the authorities, and he used that to his advantage. But he also understood that his rolodex was invaluable. I mean, if you look at the discovery in the Jess Daily case right where you have all these rushed emails from Jeffrey Epstein, he seems illiterate, which I'm sure was carefully contrived to make him look so busy when in fact he had really probably nothing to do. But he's telling Jess Daily, you know, I can get you in front of Prince Andrew, and you know, think about the psychology of that. Jess Daily was very, very senior banker at JP Morgan. He probably he had plenty of money, but what did he not have access to the British royal family. What does Bill Gates probably not have that Jeffrey Epstein could offer him access to Muhammed bin Salman, to the e Mayor of Cutter You know, at a certain level there are you know, you want introductions to other very rich people. That in a way is what makes the world go go round and Jeffrey and Epstein really understood how sort of soft power actually works, right, So, you know, and you asked though about the sex. You know that I think you asked at the beginning of your question. So, I mean, one of the things that was very striking about all the testimony in the Gilen Maxwell trial was how, in a sense, inside that Florida home he and Gilen did create a private world into which, you know, the household staff I think had a fair idea of what was going on, but you know, and it became very complicated, right because the girls that Gilen went at and recruited, I mean, I'm thinking of the late Virginia Robert Giffrey, then went out and recruited other girls, right, right, So it became a very very tragic.

Circle when you met him. Because the only person I've ever known to have met him was is my friend and Calter her she and she said this publicly. She had met him at a funeral and he invited her house and at one point during the meeting, all the hairs in the back of her head stood up and she said, I have to get out of here because thing was wrong. Was he incredibly charming?

No? Really, there was a cult coldness to his eyes. I mean, and he thought he was incredibly charming, which is completely different. And you know he thought by you know, I met him when I was pregnant and he produced tea and he sat there and ate all the tea, and you know, never offered me anything.

You know, he was he was, He was a.

Complete show off. You know, I'm sure he left the Marquis Dussard's book out for me. You know, it was all deliberate and contrived.

And then when I got.

Home, you know, he sent me this book on this mass textbook, and he I think, and then he had his assistant phone and tell me, you know how pretty I was.

And I tell you I was not feeling one.

It would have been inappropriate in any circumstances.

I was pregnant betweens now and I just was thought the whole thing was uncomfortable and absurd.

And then obviously our phone conversations took a turn for the threatening. So I did not see the chart, but I could see why other people right might have found him charge.

Did he have a successor? I mean, not a child, but did he have somebody who worked directly underneath him? That would have been his fixer and his person besides his lane.

Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, part of the tragedy of this, right is that there were that he did have a series of personal assistants who unfortunately were victims themselves and then became his personal assistants. And this is why this story is so complicated, because a lot of the names that would be more public.

Are not.

So you know, there are in the names of a lot of people that came up in Gilenn Maxwell's trial, a lot of women who were in the circle of recruitment, but because they initially were Epstein were Epstein's victims themselves, you know, they they were not sort of publicly outed as it were.

The I want to go to the Trump administration's decision not to release the file, which I mean they're saying that there was no list. I think what they mean is like, there's no excel list, because that would he would of course, because it wouldn't be an Excel list.

No.

I mean, if jeff Ycine can barely put it together, get you hold it together to send an email, he's not going to have.

An Excel list.

So but I think a question for a lot of people come into Jeffrey Epstein's foreign dealings. He was very close to the former Prime Minister of Israel, he was close to the Saudi Prince. He was close to various African dictators, to the British royal family, to American presidents, to leaders all around the globe. Two things that strike me is one, why hasn't any country seemingly done this investigation into his money and his other stuff. And secondly, was is it possible that he was an agent for Israel?

Well, the other countries wouldn't have done an investigation into his money because why would they. You know, the only people who probably want to know where Jeffrey Epstein's money is are the people who he defrauded. And I go back to my earliest statement that he made to me. Rich people don't like to admit if they've been defrauded because it makes them look stupid. So you know, if he promised people, which I'm sure he did, that he would put.

Money their money offshore.

For tax purposes or whatever other purposes, and now they're missing it, you're not likely to hear about it. Remember, Les Wexner, his biggest client, never came forward and said that Jeffrey Epstein had taken money from him until after Jeffrey Epstein was dead and les Wexner was in the crosshairs. So I think it's really important, you know, important fact to remember that.

And what was your oh, the agent for Israel?

Well, I mean, Robert Maxwell was unquestionably an agent for Israel Glen's father, which is why he's buried in the Mount of Olives. Okay, Jeffrey Epstein, as you've mentioned, had access to Israeli's in powerful positions and he knew them well. He also was very immersed in the what I would call the Israeli establishment in America.

Yes, but was he on the payroll of israel.

I?

Think?

You know, my reporting suggests probably not, you know, I mean.

But there are a lot of people who act as.

Influencers, passes of information, you know, who are not typically on a government payroll.

He didn't need to be on a government payroll.

He was.

Paid by the richest you know, Zionist in this country, Leslie Wexner. So you know that again and go back to soft power. That's kind of how soft power works. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein was immersed in high level information just as Robert Maxwell had been, and he probably chose what to do with that. But you know, again go back to the emails with Jess Daily. They were very, very instructive as to how he name dropped to suit his purposes. And you know how you know, on the one hand, he was sort of dangling carrots in front of Jess Daily, but at the same time Jess Daily was inadvertently confiding also of information about the inner workings of JP Morgan that they should not have been doing.

So was he so in your mind? And this is my last question where I got to Europe? But in your mind, was he just somebody who was, for lack of a better term, a brilliant chess player, playing everybody and knowing what everyone's weakness was. And there wasn't a bigger person behind him or a group of entities who are using him to procure information with other wealthy people, like a blackmail list for the purposes of another country or anything.

I'm not sure about the blackmail list. He definitely was a very clever chess player, and the problem is he was he.

Sure the blackmail list exists or that he was blackmail anybody to begin with?

You know that that is one of the great questions. I mean, the only thing that makes me hesitate about the blackmail list is that.

These guys.

Other than Les Weisner and you know that stayed I mean and actually Donald Trump stayed in his orbit. And typically if someone's blackmailing you, you run right as far as possible, and with a very with those two exceptions, people didn't.

So your new book, The Idaho for is about the murder case in Moscow, Idaho, that was four young women, sorry, three young women and a man were brutally murdered in an attack by a knife by by a killer in the middle of the night. There's a lot of questions ongoing in this case, like motive for example, that I still don't understand. Can you go into the brief overline of your book and what you've explored in this in this book?

Sure? So.

It is the story of the murders, it's the story of the victims the for you know, really going into their lives and hopefully keeping them alive and readers minds.

It's the story of the murderer in a way that I think nobody has detailed yet. And it's also the story of the political and social tensions in the town where this happened and in the state of Idaho. And it's a story about the negative side of the Internet.

On all sorts of levels.

I mean, the murderer, you know, the book sort of takes pains to show, is I think a construct of the dark.

Corners of the Internet.

He clearly became, you know, was a frustrated what they call inceel involuntary celibate.

Whose rage was fueled by that world.

Well, he was very overweight and he lost a lot of weight, yes, And he was studying serial killers, was he not, Yes, he was.

Exactly he studied serial colors.

He's definitely was exposed to the videos, or that Elliott Roger, who's kind of like a cult hero of this the insul movement, who was also who was a college student when he committed a mass murder suicide that was a deliberate act of vengeance against all the sorority women who had rejected him. And Elliott Roger made a series of videos in the hills of Santa Barbara sitting in his black BMW saying I'm now going to go out and kill these women who have turned me down. And he sent this video to his therapist. He sent it to his mother two minutes before he went out and did exactly that. And there are parallels with Elliott Roger, who plat you know, who also left behind a manifesto which was a sort of memoir of his life.

There are parallels.

The killer left a roommate alive and she passed her and she was all identify as bushy eyebrows. Why is there? Did he target these girls? And I mean, I think this guy would think.

What the what the friends, the best friends are the victims, and what the families believe? And what makes the most sense to me, having sort of tried to go back and trace Brian Coburger's footsteps, is that he was targeting.

One of them. He was targeting Maddie Mogan.

And I say that because you know, the police have evidence that his car was in the neighborhood twelve times that you know, And if you go to the area of the house, there's only really one place that you can park your car and look at it, and there's only really one window you can see into, and it is that of Maddie Mogan's and the room that he met he went straight to the night of the murders was Maddie Mogan. And by the way, Elliott Roger wrote at length about he had had one friend who was a woman called Maddie and he was very he was furious with her for rejecting him. So that that's a parallel that may or may not beat matter. But you know, Maddie Mogan was asleep in her bed. It was complete chance that her best friend, Katie Gonzalvez was also there. Katie Gonzalvez had already moved out of the house, was living at home. She had just come into town that one day to show Maddie Mogan her new car. So one has to believe that, you know, And what's you know, there's a line in the book that now the Gonzalves family have gone public about that. Kaylie woke up and struggled the Brian Coberger would then have had to come down the stairs to leave the house to the next floor, and that, unfortunately, is where Xana Carnodle's room was. And tragically she was still up and awake because she had just ordered a door dash deliver it really, which had just arrived at four in the morning, which is something she did very frequently. I mean, she was known to do that and had been a very big party day at the University of vide Her had been a football game day, and.

So unfortunately she was up.

And about and the signs, you know, she was found with very defensive wounds on her hands.

Sort of having fallen backward.

Into the room. Her boyfriend, Ethan was facing the wall in his bed. He was a very very tall, handsome, athletic young man. So, I mean it would appear it would appear that, you know, Xana was up and fort coburger and then he saw this big man, I mean, albeit sleeping, but he was Ethan Chapin was a big, big guy. And then he goes down, He goes down, he he you know, he passes Dylan Mortensen, who's got her door open just a crack.

Why does he ignore her and turn around and force the issue?

You know what, What's what somebody in law enforcement said to me, is that given that, you know, if if one assumes that he went in there intending to kill one person and wound up killing for that that the physical.

It's hot, you know, that would have been very draining.

Do you think that he intended to become a serial killer? I mean, if that, if he had not been caught this time. Do you think that he were kill.

Almost the perfect crime.

His only mistake was to leave the knife sheath by the bed of Maddie Morgan and Kayleie Gonzalvez. And you know, I mean in the book, I take you through the investigation and police chief of Moscow was very generous with this time to me, and it becomes very clear that were it not in fact that he had There was a trace of DNA left on the knife sheath.

It was on like the metal button part of it.

Yeah, and that were it not for the.

Fact that now there is this new methodology of it what they call investigative genetic genealogy where they use you know, websites like ancestry and me ancestry dot com. Rather they can go back and they can construct a family tree from the smallest piece of DNA. I mean that has revolutionized called cases. But in this case, there was really nothing else. They couldn't see the car clearly, they never found a murder weapon. Yeah, there was nothing else until until after about six weeks that the DNA they were able to reconstruct the family tree. And then it's then they looked at who with the last name coburger would have been in the area and then they could run his driver's license and all the rest of it.

They really didn't have anything, so he learned a lot from the serial killers.

I guess well, you know, listen, he was doing a PhD in criminology.

I mean what the book also, I think shows is his descent into despair. You know, he had he had hauled himself up from being, as you say, the very overweight loner on the spectrum, the kid who had no friends, who then had a heroin addiction. He had managed to turn his life around and now here he is the other you know, far away from Pennsylvania where he grew up, doing this PhD in criminology. But it all goes wrong because of his heinous views of women, which he's very vocal about.

He sort of can't keep them to himself.

And it gets him into all sorts of trouble, and very rapidly, it's very clear he's going to lose his funding and teaching position at Washington State Universities, that everything he's battled for is coming down around him. And he has this belief, you know, he tells the classmate, I can get any woman I want which was of course patently untrue. So you know, it's a horrific set of circumstances all coming together, and it does raise questions run about them, you know, about the First Amendment because had this thing gone to trial, I mean, I know that the victims' families wanted to know more about the role of Washington State University where he was teaching and where he clearly there were red flags. And you know, again you come back to this question when is free speech hates speech? And I think that the victims families that's one question they won't get answers to now that he's played guilty and there's no trial.

Well, the book is called The Idaho for It is available wherever books are sold. I've read Vicki's books in the past, so I've not read this one yet. And she is a fabulous, fabulous writer. You wrote this one, James Patterson, right, yes, yes, I'm sure it's.

Going to be a pace from him. It was a great collaboration.

Well, she's a brilliant writer. Check it out if you love true crime. I'm going to absolutely check it out. Thank you for being on this podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Ryan.

Hey, we'll be right back after this and now for the Ask Me Anything segment of this podcast. If you want a part of the Ask Me Anything segment, please email me Ryan at Numbers gamepodcast dot com. That's Ryan at Numbers gamepodcast dot com. So this question comes from Brock. He says, Hey, Ryan. First of all, I was obsessed with your appearance on clam buckling up to the election. I love geeking out with you on the numbers and everything, and now I listen to every single in your podcasts. Thank you so much, Rock. I can't overstate that thank you. I heard you mentioned ADHD. In my entire fe family has ADHD. I always tell my daughter that is a superpower to embrace the creativity and excitement we bring to the world with our neurodivergent brains. I've heard you mentioned a couple of times autistic thus and such as ADHD, and I'm curious if you're on the spectrum yourself and have ADHD and those extra superpowers. Thank you so much. Okay, Brock, I don't mean to laugh. I just this is the first time I'm reading the email. I am not on the spectrum. Wish I could claim that as an excuse sometimes for saying what I think. But no, I'm not on the spectrum. I've never been testing the spectrum. I was tested in high school because I was failing basically every subject but the subjects that I cared about. I had over a one hundred point grade point average. And so it was like extremes. And they took me as St. Francis Prep. They took me to as a psychiatrist or whatever to test my IQ. I guess was handicapped. I don't know. I'm not gonna say, but they brought me to me tested my IQ, and my IQ was I'm not bragging, but it was high. It was one forty two. And so they said, there's no way that this person is, you know, not able to pass grades because they're slow or because they're handicapped or whatever. There there's something going on here. So they because I had extreme levels of excitement and boredom and my numbers would fly off and on the charts, they diagnosed me with ADHD. They gave me medication. I took it one time and I just said, I'm not doing this anymore. I was very you know, I was always a pain for everybody in my whole entire life. But but that was that was how that happened, and I do have so I've been dying as ADHD. I have never had it treated as far as medication goes. I write lists every moment of every day. I write lists constantly to keep myself on track. I will often take on ten projects at the same time because I have to take a break from one and go to the other, which probably takes a lot more time than it should to get ordinary things done. I have relatives who also have ADHD, and they do things like they could work and sit in one place for nine hours and then they can't do the laundry because they can't operate. They can't operate in certain things and they can operate in other things. It's it is actually I know it's a running joke and everyone has ADHD. There are times it is a really big struggle. And I will say, since technology is a bigger and bigger partner life, it is a bigger and bigger struggle. It is not easy to deal with sometimes it actually is definitely uh is definitely hard. But I you know, there have been there have been people in history who have had it way harder than I have been, who have overcome extremely difficult odds. So I don't count it as a you know, disability or as anything else. I just think that it's one part of me that makes me function, and I've learned to kind of operate within it. I don't know, I guess it's it's not like the most medically knowledgeable answer, but I just this is how I have managed to operate. I write lists, like you know, for everything all the time in my sleep, morning, noon, and night. And I know if I want to do something like read, I have to dedicate time away from all technological things in the morning because I can't really focus in the evening. And I've also take power naps. I take twenty minute naps, like around four o'clock or three o'clock. I will take a twenty minute power like literally just twenty minutes. I'm totally fine. It's like completely re energized. So that's how I've learned to operate it. I don't take medication, and I am i e healthy, but I don't like I don't know if I've read die number two of my system or anything like that. I just don't. I don't have a lot of sugar, and I go to the gym pretty regularly, despite how having fortunes would never know that about me any I know that this is the ADHD working right now. I'm just going to what do I do to make myself healthier? But no, I'm not on the spectrum. Thank you for listening, though, Brock, I really appreciate it, and I appreciate to anyone else who as ADHD is living with it and takes the time to listen to this podcast. I appreciate you so much, and yes, your daughter should lean in to her neurodivergent brain and all the special things that come with it. Thank you guys so much for listening. Please like and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. See you next time.