As a baby of the eighties and child of the nineties, If George Michael taught me anything it's that you gotta have faith. And that's the theme of this episode. Welcome back to It's a Numbers Game with Ryan Grodski. On February twenty sixth, Pew Research, one of the premier think tanks that looks at American life, put on their third Religious Landscape Study. This is a study conducted in two thousand and seven, twenty fourteen, and last week that examines how It's a massive study. It examines how Americans think about religion in multitude of ways, everything from raising children to praying to church attendance. It's over thirty six nine hundred people were part of the study. That's a massive, massive study. So what it defined Between two thousand and seven and twenty fourteen, these are the older studies. Christianity and daily prayer decline substantially in this country, right, and the number of people claiming to be part religiously unaffiliated climbed pretty dramatically. That trend continued all the way through their smaller studies. They have small studies between these major years. All in these smaller studies until twenty twenty. But and here's your data for this episode. In two thousand and seven, seventy eight percent of Americans reported being Christians. The number fell to seventy one percent by twenty fourteen and declined further to sixty two percent by twenty twenty. Likewise, number of Americans who said they prayed daily went from fifty eight percent in two thousand and seven to forty eight percent in twenty twenty, a ten point drop. Americans have been getting more secular every day until twenty twenty, and that's when the really interesting part of this survey happened. Since twenty twenty, Christianitian America has remained stable and even increased Among some segments of the population. The boomers, Zoomers, and millennials are having a bit of a religious revival. The number of people born between two thousand and two thousand and six who reported to pray daily rose from twenty percent to thirty percent. It's only ticked up slightly from millennials born in the eighties and baby boomers in the fifties and sixties, but they all so a flight increase, a noticeable increase. These are the generations that are most likely to also see an increase in reporting that they identify as Christians since twenty twenty. For Zoomers once again, those born between two thousand and two thousand and six, the numbers identifying as Christian went from forty five percent to fifty one percent. For millennials from the eighties, it's going from fifty to two to fifty six percent, and for older gen xers and young baby boomers going in the sixties and fifties, the number one from seventy two to seventy six percent. That's an average of a five point increase in those three generations. And while that's not massive, it's not like a thirty point increase. It's not this you know, religious revival, it's in any like you know, massive way, but it's a it's the first time in almost twenty years that there's been any reversal or any slowing down of mass secorism. That's worth noting. And while young people are still far less Christian than their parents, Zoomers went from being plurality agnostic in twenty twenty to being majority Christian. So what happened in twenty twenty, Like, why was that the thing? Why are did it spark the change. Some of my readers onlines that it was because of immigration by President Biden. After all, did let in millions and millions of people demographically change this country, possibly permanently and unless we get the mass deportations, really you know, kicking big time. But these millions of peoplend so maybe they changed the country, and that it's a valid point. So I looked into it. The overall Christian population America was sixty one percent white, thirteen percent Black, eighteen percent Hispanic, and three percent Asian. Now look at the overall composition of the US, which is fifty eight percent white, twenty percent Hispanic, thirteen percent Black, and six percent Asian. Basically, America's Christians look like the rest of America. It's not overwhelmingly you know, Hispanic or overwhelmingly African. It's it looks just like us. And I think people forget that while America has grown more secular in the last twenty years, so has the rest of the world, including Latin America and even Africa. Like the image that we have of like regions of Latin America where there's like nine kids running around, you know, in a household, Crucifixes in our lady of wild up statutes. That doesn't exist, That doesn't exist anywhere, not in any big way. The most of Latin America has a birth rate way below fertility level. Some parts of Latin America have a fertility oh you know, have fewer kids than we do in America. So the study that the study is actually as They also found out that people born outside the United States actually have a less religious affiliation than those born in the United States, which does make sense when you remember that Asians Asian immigrants are the least religious group of people of any demographic in the United States. So if it wasn't mass immigration that stopped the decline and create a slight resurgence in Christianity of the last few years, what was it. Some analysts said it was COVID nineteen that sparked maybe a slight religious change amongst some people. With a lot of free time and the lockdown, I think people re examine their faith. But there's a bigger story, and that's the story of young men. Young men are much more religious than they used to be. Religion was something that women always did more often than men, and that's true of the Silent generation, Baby Boomers, Gen xers Millennials, but not much for Zoomers. Young men were basically as religious as women for the very first time. Some sady is actually besides the PUC, they have young men being more religious than young women. Analysts like David Campbell, a political scientist from the University of Notre Dame. He says that young men who have also become more likely to support Donald Trump because of cultural values, are saying that they're more likely to identify as Christian. That there's an internet personalities besides like the Joe Rogan's and the Barstow's sports which are not religous at all, that have created this cultural movement to sit there and say, you know, you should at least identify as Christian because it's part of our overall political values, are our moral values. You know, people like Daily Wires hosts Michael Knowles, big big you know podcast hosts. He talks about Catholic faith a lot. Father Mike Schmitz who had a huge podcast called a Bible in a Year and Catechism in a Year. There were big hits. He's a prominent person on the alternative media. And then there's even like subculture interne people, people who are not huge like those people are as far as you know, podcast hosts go and Internet people Dasha and Arika Sova. I'm probably just butchered her last name, but Dasha from Red Scare and she was on the TV show Succession. She talks about her because a lot like a lot a lot, and she has a lot of women and young men and people who are maybe like in more of the internet's subculture, but they are looking and they're listening and they're talking about it. Is this part of a permanent change? Are we just going to get a much more religious country? No, because zoomers are still way less religious than baby boomers are. So as baby boomers die off and Zoomers go into adulthood, Christianity will decrease as that time goes on. It's just a generational shift, but it's not bleeding the way that it used to be. And maybe if the door's open to some kind of revival, maybe that means something else will happen, you know, because religion matters more than just people's personal morals personal faith. There's entirely different life experiences that are happening from people who are religious than those who are not religious. Eighty two percent of people who are politically conservative say they have some kind of religion, compared to just thirty percent of liberals. Those who are religious are also more likely to babies, They're more likely to boleance it for charity. They're more likely to affiliate with other religious organizations like schools like religious schools and private schools, and homeschooling organizations. Think about this. Among thirty eight year olds church going Mormons, seventy percent have children under the age of eighteen. Compare that to thirty year old atheists. Only thirty eight percent have children under eighteen, half as many are experiencing parenthood Like this life altering part of your life as an adult, being a parent is only being experience, or is being twice as experience among religious people as non religious people. And that will bleed into our politics, It will bleed into our values, it will bleed into our economy and a million other things. And while sixty three percent of Republicans say that they believe in God without a doubt, just thirty nine percent of Democrats do so. Is politics fueling a religious revival, especially among men? Or is religious inspiring a political conversion? To talk to me about it. This week is Catherine Ruth Bacullich. She's a professor of economics at Catholic University and the author of the great book Hannah's Children. Catherine, Welcome to a numbers game.

As a baby of the eighties and child of the nineties, If George Michael taught me anything it's that you gotta have faith. And that's the theme of this episode. Welcome back to It's a Numbers Game with Ryan Grodski. On February twenty sixth, Pew Research, one of the premier think tanks that looks at American life, put on their third Religious Landscape Study. This is a study conducted in two thousand and seven, twenty fourteen, and last week that examines how It's a massive study. It examines how Americans think about religion in multitude of ways, everything from raising children to praying to church attendance. It's over thirty six nine hundred people were part of the study. That's a massive, massive study. So what it defined Between two thousand and seven and twenty fourteen, these are the older studies. Christianity and daily prayer decline substantially in this country, right, and the number of people claiming to be part religiously unaffiliated climbed pretty dramatically. That trend continued all the way through their smaller studies. They have small studies between these major years. All in these smaller studies until twenty twenty. But and here's your data for this episode. In two thousand and seven, seventy eight percent of Americans reported being Christians. The number fell to seventy one percent by twenty fourteen and declined further to sixty two percent by twenty twenty. Likewise, number of Americans who said they prayed daily went from fifty eight percent in two thousand and seven to forty eight percent in twenty twenty, a ten point drop. Americans have been getting more secular every day until twenty twenty, and that's when the really interesting part of this survey happened. Since twenty twenty, Christianitian America has remained stable and even increased Among some segments of the population. The boomers, Zoomers, and millennials are having a bit of a religious revival. The number of people born between two thousand and two thousand and six who reported to pray daily rose from twenty percent to thirty percent. It's only ticked up slightly from millennials born in the eighties and baby boomers in the fifties and sixties, but they all so a flight increase, a noticeable increase. These are the generations that are most likely to also see an increase in reporting that they identify as Christians since twenty twenty. For Zoomers once again, those born between two thousand and two thousand and six, the numbers identifying as Christian went from forty five percent to fifty one percent. For millennials from the eighties, it's going from fifty to two to fifty six percent, and for older gen xers and young baby boomers going in the sixties and fifties, the number one from seventy two to seventy six percent. That's an average of a five point increase in those three generations. And while that's not massive, it's not like a thirty point increase. It's not this you know, religious revival, it's in any like you know, massive way, but it's a it's the first time in almost twenty years that there's been any reversal or any slowing down of mass secorism. That's worth noting. And while young people are still far less Christian than their parents, Zoomers went from being plurality agnostic in twenty twenty to being majority Christian. So what happened in twenty twenty, Like, why was that the thing? Why are did it spark the change. Some of my readers onlines that it was because of immigration by President Biden. After all, did let in millions and millions of people demographically change this country, possibly permanently and unless we get the mass deportations, really you know, kicking big time. But these millions of peoplend so maybe they changed the country, and that it's a valid point. So I looked into it. The overall Christian population America was sixty one percent white, thirteen percent Black, eighteen percent Hispanic, and three percent Asian. Now look at the overall composition of the US, which is fifty eight percent white, twenty percent Hispanic, thirteen percent Black, and six percent Asian. Basically, America's Christians look like the rest of America. It's not overwhelmingly you know, Hispanic or overwhelmingly African. It's it looks just like us. And I think people forget that while America has grown more secular in the last twenty years, so has the rest of the world, including Latin America and even Africa. Like the image that we have of like regions of Latin America where there's like nine kids running around, you know, in a household, Crucifixes in our lady of wild up statutes. That doesn't exist, That doesn't exist anywhere, not in any big way. The most of Latin America has a birth rate way below fertility level. Some parts of Latin America have a fertility oh you know, have fewer kids than we do in America. So the study that the study is actually as They also found out that people born outside the United States actually have a less religious affiliation than those born in the United States, which does make sense when you remember that Asians Asian immigrants are the least religious group of people of any demographic in the United States. So if it wasn't mass immigration that stopped the decline and create a slight resurgence in Christianity of the last few years, what was it. Some analysts said it was COVID nineteen that sparked maybe a slight religious change amongst some people. With a lot of free time and the lockdown, I think people re examine their faith. But there's a bigger story, and that's the story of young men. Young men are much more religious than they used to be. Religion was something that women always did more often than men, and that's true of the Silent generation, Baby Boomers, Gen xers Millennials, but not much for Zoomers. Young men were basically as religious as women for the very first time. Some sady is actually besides the PUC, they have young men being more religious than young women. Analysts like David Campbell, a political scientist from the University of Notre Dame. He says that young men who have also become more likely to support Donald Trump because of cultural values, are saying that they're more likely to identify as Christian. That there's an internet personalities besides like the Joe Rogan's and the Barstow's sports which are not religous at all, that have created this cultural movement to sit there and say, you know, you should at least identify as Christian because it's part of our overall political values, are our moral values. You know, people like Daily Wires hosts Michael Knowles, big big you know podcast hosts. He talks about Catholic faith a lot. Father Mike Schmitz who had a huge podcast called a Bible in a Year and Catechism in a Year. There were big hits. He's a prominent person on the alternative media. And then there's even like subculture interne people, people who are not huge like those people are as far as you know, podcast hosts go and Internet people Dasha and Arika Sova. I'm probably just butchered her last name, but Dasha from Red Scare and she was on the TV show Succession. She talks about her because a lot like a lot a lot, and she has a lot of women and young men and people who are maybe like in more of the internet's subculture, but they are looking and they're listening and they're talking about it. Is this part of a permanent change? Are we just going to get a much more religious country? No, because zoomers are still way less religious than baby boomers are. So as baby boomers die off and Zoomers go into adulthood, Christianity will decrease as that time goes on. It's just a generational shift, but it's not bleeding the way that it used to be. And maybe if the door's open to some kind of revival, maybe that means something else will happen, you know, because religion matters more than just people's personal morals personal faith. There's entirely different life experiences that are happening from people who are religious than those who are not religious. Eighty two percent of people who are politically conservative say they have some kind of religion, compared to just thirty percent of liberals. Those who are religious are also more likely to babies, They're more likely to boleance it for charity. They're more likely to affiliate with other religious organizations like schools like religious schools and private schools, and homeschooling organizations. Think about this. Among thirty eight year olds church going Mormons, seventy percent have children under the age of eighteen. Compare that to thirty year old atheists. Only thirty eight percent have children under eighteen, half as many are experiencing parenthood Like this life altering part of your life as an adult, being a parent is only being experience, or is being twice as experience among religious people as non religious people. And that will bleed into our politics, It will bleed into our values, it will bleed into our economy and a million other things. And while sixty three percent of Republicans say that they believe in God without a doubt, just thirty nine percent of Democrats do so. Is politics fueling a religious revival, especially among men? Or is religious inspiring a political conversion? To talk to me about it. This week is Catherine Ruth Bacullich. She's a professor of economics at Catholic University and the author of the great book Hannah's Children. Catherine, Welcome to a numbers game.

Thanks Catherine.

Thanks Catherine.

In your book hannash Children, which I am in the middle of reading, it's a great book, by the way, you interviewed dozens of college educated women who had five or more children, basically demographic outliers, and they all had college educations. That's the important equation. They had college educations, and they had lots of kids, and you know, having large families is a very obvious in the book. In the book, they often talk about their religion, all these women and how are and plays an important part in their decision to have children. We've talked a lot about religion earlier in the show and the and the change in how people act with religion, how religion is changing, and that there's been this small increase in number of young people saying that they are religious that aside from just marriage or is it just marriage and chowering? Is there another thing that religion plays a part in?

In your book hannash Children, which I am in the middle of reading, it's a great book, by the way, you interviewed dozens of college educated women who had five or more children, basically demographic outliers, and they all had college educations. That's the important equation. They had college educations, and they had lots of kids, and you know, having large families is a very obvious in the book. In the book, they often talk about their religion, all these women and how are and plays an important part in their decision to have children. We've talked a lot about religion earlier in the show and the and the change in how people act with religion, how religion is changing, and that there's been this small increase in number of young people saying that they are religious that aside from just marriage or is it just marriage and chowering? Is there another thing that religion plays a part in?

Probably education?

Probably education?

Really?

Really?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Yeah, I mean meaning we're seeing a real shift. Let's just say, explosive rise in homeschooling, Christian schooling, you know, those kinds of things. I think that's probably something to keep around. I haven't dug into the data on this. I'm not actually sure I've seen any, but I think, you know, if we were to break down the trends and like the rise of homeschooling, you know, we're seeing that motivated by a lot a lot of Christian.

Yeah, I mean meaning we're seeing a real shift. Let's just say, explosive rise in homeschooling, Christian schooling, you know, those kinds of things. I think that's probably something to keep around. I haven't dug into the data on this. I'm not actually sure I've seen any, but I think, you know, if we were to break down the trends and like the rise of homeschooling, you know, we're seeing that motivated by a lot a lot of Christian.

Groups, a lot Jewish groups. So right, so I think it's there.

Groups, a lot Jewish groups. So right, so I think it's there.

But of course education, I'd say, like in terms of marriage and family, it's it's part of the transmission of values. So it's it's probably part of this story of this political interaction.

But of course education, I'd say, like in terms of marriage and family, it's it's part of the transmission of values. So it's it's probably part of this story of this political interaction.

The Pew study was interesting because there was the number of people who are zoomers right generations see people worn two thousand and two thousand and six who are port being Christian is up from twenty twenty. But they are not praying daily increasing there, but they're identifying as Christian, Like they're over there Christian. What is it? Like they're they're consumptly Christian. The door is open. They're kind of like walking through. Yeah, is being culturally Christian just a big part of it? Like to say, I'm not down with blocism, so therefore christian.

The Pew study was interesting because there was the number of people who are zoomers right generations see people worn two thousand and two thousand and six who are port being Christian is up from twenty twenty. But they are not praying daily increasing there, but they're identifying as Christian, Like they're over there Christian. What is it? Like they're they're consumptly Christian. The door is open. They're kind of like walking through. Yeah, is being culturally Christian just a big part of it? Like to say, I'm not down with blocism, so therefore christian.

Maybe, I think that's part of it. Another piece of it is probably what we would call like immunity, So like they're because they're Christian or the identify as Christian if some of like other identity group that keeps them immune from these trends or gives them like a safe space to be I kind of wonder looking at your.

Maybe, I think that's part of it. Another piece of it is probably what we would call like immunity, So like they're because they're Christian or the identify as Christian if some of like other identity group that keeps them immune from these trends or gives them like a safe space to be I kind of wonder looking at your.

Point about like these are zoomers, they're certainty.

Point about like these are zoomers, they're certainty.

I mean like if they're zumors, they're born in like two thousand, right, that means probably a lot of them haven't started their families yet. Yeah, And we know in terms of religious trends on behavior that actually a time when sort of cultural religious people become like actual religious people is when they have their first kid, see right right.

I mean like if they're zumors, they're born in like two thousand, right, that means probably a lot of them haven't started their families yet. Yeah, And we know in terms of religious trends on behavior that actually a time when sort of cultural religious people become like actual religious people is when they have their first kid, see right right.

You have something to take to church.

You have something to take to church.

Yeah, and also if you go sit into a religious school, that's a big part of it as well. Yeah, you're listening to It's a numbers game with Ryan Gerdosky. We'll be right back after this message. There's a big question mark of like why did Christianity stop declining? Yes, part of it could be it happens like twenty twenty is like the figurehead. And there's a lot that happens in twenty twenty, right, there's the racial riots, there's the wokeism. There's also COVID, and there are a lot of people who turned to podcasters. You know was a father, Mike Schmidt.

Yeah, and also if you go sit into a religious school, that's a big part of it as well. Yeah, you're listening to It's a numbers game with Ryan Gerdosky. We'll be right back after this message. There's a big question mark of like why did Christianity stop declining? Yes, part of it could be it happens like twenty twenty is like the figurehead. And there's a lot that happens in twenty twenty, right, there's the racial riots, there's the wokeism. There's also COVID, and there are a lot of people who turned to podcasters. You know was a father, Mike Schmidt.

As his famous that's true. Yeah, you have, you.

As his famous that's true. Yeah, you have, you.

Know, Michael Knowles, you have even like sub texts of people. What do you think it could be? You're college kids a lot.

Know, Michael Knowles, you have even like sub texts of people. What do you think it could be? You're college kids a lot.

Yeah, No, that's right. I was going to say, I mean, I think the alternative media has been a huge piece of that.

Yeah, No, that's right. I was going to say, I mean, I think the alternative media has been a huge piece of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My sons are probably my sons who are exact that age range, and two of them are married. I mean, they listen to more podcasts than I do, and they're probably like politically a little bit to the right of me, you know which, and I'm like to the right of most people, but my sons are definitely probably to the right of me. Jordan Peterson had a big impact, and of course he's like you know, and he talks about God in religion all the time, even if he's not a member of an organized religion.

My sons are probably my sons who are exact that age range, and two of them are married. I mean, they listen to more podcasts than I do, and they're probably like politically a little bit to the right of me, you know which, and I'm like to the right of most people, but my sons are definitely probably to the right of me. Jordan Peterson had a big impact, and of course he's like you know, and he talks about God in religion all the time, even if he's not a member of an organized religion.

Is oh is he I best?

Is oh is he I best?

Like, I think I'm not a huge follower, but I think like his wife was like dying, she had a miraculous.

Like, I think I'm not a huge follower, but I think like his wife was like dying, she had a miraculous.

His wife converted, converted, I mean, and obviously he talks about God all the time. And so if you were, if you were, if you were like a kid growing up in a religious family and looking for sort of permission to be sort of politically religious or to express yourself or identify as a Christian, Peterson would certainly have been something that would support that. Yeah, I mean, and actually just I'm thinking of another detail from my book that I forgot to mention earlier. I tell that story like in the second chapter of this Family, I walked into their house. They lived in New England. It's a super democratic area. There's like a Jewish family with a bunch of kids, and the dad greets me with a maga hat on, you know, and I.

His wife converted, converted, I mean, and obviously he talks about God all the time. And so if you were, if you were, if you were like a kid growing up in a religious family and looking for sort of permission to be sort of politically religious or to express yourself or identify as a Christian, Peterson would certainly have been something that would support that. Yeah, I mean, and actually just I'm thinking of another detail from my book that I forgot to mention earlier. I tell that story like in the second chapter of this Family, I walked into their house. They lived in New England. It's a super democratic area. There's like a Jewish family with a bunch of kids, and the dad greets me with a maga hat on, you know, and I.

Was like, I read part of your book.

Was like, I read part of your book.

Yeah, you know, and it's like.

Yeah, you know, and it's like.

You know, you go look at the you go look at those correlations, and there's there's obviously something going on that I think it'll crystallize and the number is better in the next decade. But like something we're seeing these red states, I have more marriage and more family, more traditional family behaviors, I'm assuming, although I don't have a good chart of it, but I think the religious behavior is stronger there as well.

You know, you go look at the you go look at those correlations, and there's there's obviously something going on that I think it'll crystallize and the number is better in the next decade. But like something we're seeing these red states, I have more marriage and more family, more traditional family behaviors, I'm assuming, although I don't have a good chart of it, but I think the religious behavior is stronger there as well.

Yeah, I mean yes, I think like the highest states for fertility, off the top of my head is like Utah is always usually number one because the LDS like things still kind of even if the Mormons don't have as many kids they used to, they're still higher than the average. And then it's like Nebraska, Kansas sometimes the.

Yeah, I mean yes, I think like the highest states for fertility, off the top of my head is like Utah is always usually number one because the LDS like things still kind of even if the Mormons don't have as many kids they used to, they're still higher than the average. And then it's like Nebraska, Kansas sometimes the.

Dakota, Dakota's yeah, yeah.

Dakota, Dakota's yeah, yeah.

The Plain States and Utah really outstretched the rest.

The Plain States and Utah really outstretched the rest.

Of the yeah.

Of the yeah.

True.

True.

Yeah. The other thing about like young people becoming more religious, and I'm thinking we may want to think about too, is like religious college. There's this kind of story of these kind of scrappy religious colleges, many of which stayed open during COVID. And we've also got the homeschoolers coming of age. I mean, that big shift, that kind of growth in homeschoolers, which was like, you know, it's just like a classic tipping point. You'd say, well, people were out there homeschooling their kids in the nineties when I hadn't even heard of homeschooling.

Yeah. The other thing about like young people becoming more religious, and I'm thinking we may want to think about too, is like religious college. There's this kind of story of these kind of scrappy religious colleges, many of which stayed open during COVID. And we've also got the homeschoolers coming of age. I mean, that big shift, that kind of growth in homeschoolers, which was like, you know, it's just like a classic tipping point. You'd say, well, people were out there homeschooling their kids in the nineties when I hadn't even heard of homeschooling.

They were out there.

They were out there.

Doing this, and then those kids had kids, and like, are we just starting to see a sort of tipping point of all those homeschoolers right, community.

Doing this, and then those kids had kids, and like, are we just starting to see a sort of tipping point of all those homeschoolers right, community.

People said, like, I mean, my followers on Twitter were saying to me, well, obviously this uptacking religion is all because of immigration, Biden, let all these people.

People said, like, I mean, my followers on Twitter were saying to me, well, obviously this uptacking religion is all because of immigration, Biden, let all these people.

In No, I don't think so.

In No, I don't think so.

Well. I looked it up the numbers and it's basically the same exact demographic breakdown as America, So there's no big change. And also I think that people forget that, like Latin America is much less religious than it used to be. People. Yeah, Westrola is a bunch of you know, women with our lead to Guadalupe statues with nine children running around, and that's not the way it is and has hasn't been for quite sometimes.

Well. I looked it up the numbers and it's basically the same exact demographic breakdown as America, So there's no big change. And also I think that people forget that, like Latin America is much less religious than it used to be. People. Yeah, Westrola is a bunch of you know, women with our lead to Guadalupe statues with nine children running around, and that's not the way it is and has hasn't been for quite sometimes.

Yeah, a lot of Pentecostalism, Yeah, a.

Yeah, a lot of Pentecostalism, Yeah, a.

Lot of just secular people who don't have kids anymore. Mexico as well below the birth rate. Most of Latin America is way below the earth. So I think that that says a lot about who is If everything in culture and everything in society it's as easy as possible to be secular, and pop culture more or less mocks religion more often than it celebrates it. What would make a young person or a younger person gravitate towards faith?

Lot of just secular people who don't have kids anymore. Mexico as well below the birth rate. Most of Latin America is way below the earth. So I think that that says a lot about who is If everything in culture and everything in society it's as easy as possible to be secular, and pop culture more or less mocks religion more often than it celebrates it. What would make a young person or a younger person gravitate towards faith?

Now?

Now?

Is it just saying, hey, look I'm Christian, therefore I'm not woke or is it something deeper going on? A lot of young people, a lot of like zoomers especially, really crave an authentic relationship with something all the time. They're always searching authenticity. Do you see that? Do you think that?

Is it just saying, hey, look I'm Christian, therefore I'm not woke or is it something deeper going on? A lot of young people, a lot of like zoomers especially, really crave an authentic relationship with something all the time. They're always searching authenticity. Do you see that? Do you think that?

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean certainly in my time as a college teacher kind of watching over the last ten years, I mean, I would say I'm definitely seeing greater identification with religiosity as a form of identity, but definitely political. These are a lot of the same young men and women that are part of the MAGA movement. The other thing I kind of want to mention is like, and I don't even know have I don't have a name for it, but it seems to go along with this, which is kind of these more traditional or sort of throwback forms of religion which do seem sort of like they're not doing what like we need to be more granular when we talk about religion rates sort of like we know what's happening with the sort of mainline Protestant churches. They're all like super woke and progressive, right, and then you know.

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean certainly in my time as a college teacher kind of watching over the last ten years, I mean, I would say I'm definitely seeing greater identification with religiosity as a form of identity, but definitely political. These are a lot of the same young men and women that are part of the MAGA movement. The other thing I kind of want to mention is like, and I don't even know have I don't have a name for it, but it seems to go along with this, which is kind of these more traditional or sort of throwback forms of religion which do seem sort of like they're not doing what like we need to be more granular when we talk about religion rates sort of like we know what's happening with the sort of mainline Protestant churches. They're all like super woke and progressive, right, and then you know.

You got are all like they have like you know, Jesus was like a black trans feminist. Like that's the sign that they have outside.

You got are all like they have like you know, Jesus was like a black trans feminist. Like that's the sign that they have outside.

Exactly, and you're like, that's not going to be the future of your church as it, you know. But I would say, like in my church and the Catholic Church, you know that you've got these sort of I mean so called trad Catholics. That wasn't even a name tech we didn't have a name for that ten years ago. It was like, oh, there seems to be like Latin Mass people. But actually it's much bigger what people call trad Catholic stuff today. It's a lot bigger than Latin Mass stuff. It's like young people that want to veil and they want like older they smell them bets Catholicism. They want to sort of like that, and that seems to be broad. It seems like there's a lot of Orthodoxy. I know literally no people older than zoomers that are like becoming Orthodox Christians.

Exactly, and you're like, that's not going to be the future of your church as it, you know. But I would say, like in my church and the Catholic Church, you know that you've got these sort of I mean so called trad Catholics. That wasn't even a name tech we didn't have a name for that ten years ago. It was like, oh, there seems to be like Latin Mass people. But actually it's much bigger what people call trad Catholic stuff today. It's a lot bigger than Latin Mass stuff. It's like young people that want to veil and they want like older they smell them bets Catholicism. They want to sort of like that, and that seems to be broad. It seems like there's a lot of Orthodoxy. I know literally no people older than zoomers that are like becoming Orthodox Christians.

I know Orthodox Christians too, that's like all new.

I know Orthodox Christians too, that's like all new.

Yeah, And I know, well, there's two things that come to mind. One is that people have this perception, like the Obama perception that religions for lower income people who cling to their guns and their bibles, when in fact religious church attendance is higher among college educated people than non college educated religion is really, if you're an active participant in a church a physical building, you are more likely to be middle class or upper middle class. It is a bougie thing to belong to religion. Really, why do you think that is? Is religion something that you just have to have a lot of money in time to sit there and be a participant in because the cultural forces of that would make someone go to church aren't there anymore.

Yeah, And I know, well, there's two things that come to mind. One is that people have this perception, like the Obama perception that religions for lower income people who cling to their guns and their bibles, when in fact religious church attendance is higher among college educated people than non college educated religion is really, if you're an active participant in a church a physical building, you are more likely to be middle class or upper middle class. It is a bougie thing to belong to religion. Really, why do you think that is? Is religion something that you just have to have a lot of money in time to sit there and be a participant in because the cultural forces of that would make someone go to church aren't there anymore.

Yeah, well, I definitely think that. I mean, religion is always engaged the idea of the intellectual virtue. I mean, religion has always been a part of kind of the academic or the intellectual sphere. There are religious groups that are popping up and protected on all all the college campuses. I mean, this is another piece of this right, Like, compared to when I was a student, it's much easier to be part of a religious group on a secular campus than it used to be. Like when I was a student, was like you couldn't even find other Christians. You'd look around. I went to Harvard for grad school upin undergrad deeply secular places, very very secular places, not.

Yeah, well, I definitely think that. I mean, religion is always engaged the idea of the intellectual virtue. I mean, religion has always been a part of kind of the academic or the intellectual sphere. There are religious groups that are popping up and protected on all all the college campuses. I mean, this is another piece of this right, Like, compared to when I was a student, it's much easier to be part of a religious group on a secular campus than it used to be. Like when I was a student, was like you couldn't even find other Christians. You'd look around. I went to Harvard for grad school upin undergrad deeply secular places, very very secular places, not.

A community college robout like myself.

A community college robout like myself.

But you know, no, I honestly like, at this point, I'm like, despite having gone to ivy like schools, I'm still like a decent person. That's like, it's almost an embarrassing thing on my vita at this point. But I mean, for sure, like you would look around and be like, those look like cheerful Asian students over there, they're probably Christian, which is a funny sort of stereotype, but it was it was kind of true at the time, and you'd have to guess looking at people, like maybe they're Christian and maybe they're religious. There was no like chat groups, there was no way to find people today like that's that's one of these things that's been enabled. So there's a lot of that. But I did want to get to that point that I think religion, the great religions of the world, have always been engaged with the kind of proposition about faith and reason.

But you know, no, I honestly like, at this point, I'm like, despite having gone to ivy like schools, I'm still like a decent person. That's like, it's almost an embarrassing thing on my vita at this point. But I mean, for sure, like you would look around and be like, those look like cheerful Asian students over there, they're probably Christian, which is a funny sort of stereotype, but it was it was kind of true at the time, and you'd have to guess looking at people, like maybe they're Christian and maybe they're religious. There was no like chat groups, there was no way to find people today like that's that's one of these things that's been enabled. So there's a lot of that. But I did want to get to that point that I think religion, the great religions of the world, have always been engaged with the kind of proposition about faith and reason.

And so I think it is kind of natural.

And so I think it is kind of natural.

That that there we would see this reflected in the sort of educated classes. That's a complete answer to your question. But you you reminded me of something else, Like I know that ARC Forum was in London last week? Was it ARC? This like alliance? It's like Peterson's gig. It's this alliance responsible sitisitions. There's all these people that want to protect Western civilization. I mean, I would think of it as like a political cultural thing. It has nothing officially to do with religion. But the first ARC forum that they had, like eighteen months ago, one of the speakers was like, so organized religion, it's important raise your hand in this group if you belong to an organized religion unless you're just like Peterson, like spiritual, and you know, like the hands went up, And so there is some kind of story here about kind of whatever it is that organized religion is providing in the wake of sort of like the rest of it all fell apart, right, like the old belief that like liberal like whatever the old consensus about like liberal institutions will save us, Like we'll all just kind of march towards this happy religious, happy.

That that there we would see this reflected in the sort of educated classes. That's a complete answer to your question. But you you reminded me of something else, Like I know that ARC Forum was in London last week? Was it ARC? This like alliance? It's like Peterson's gig. It's this alliance responsible sitisitions. There's all these people that want to protect Western civilization. I mean, I would think of it as like a political cultural thing. It has nothing officially to do with religion. But the first ARC forum that they had, like eighteen months ago, one of the speakers was like, so organized religion, it's important raise your hand in this group if you belong to an organized religion unless you're just like Peterson, like spiritual, and you know, like the hands went up, And so there is some kind of story here about kind of whatever it is that organized religion is providing in the wake of sort of like the rest of it all fell apart, right, like the old belief that like liberal like whatever the old consensus about like liberal institutions will save us, Like we'll all just kind of march towards this happy religious, happy.

Cour It's like the neoliberalism will all have Donald's.

Cour It's like the neoliberalism will all have Donald's.

In every box.

In every box.

Yes, that clearly fell apart, right, And yeah.

Yes, that clearly fell apart, right, And yeah.

I think there's three different bosses to it. I think that there is like the people who are motivated by influencers, whether they be like the whole crisis King, you know, I think this is what I'm signaling, or whether it be like the trad wife movements on Instagram. You see those women who like they've got makeup and their milk and cow and they have fourteen kids running around.

I think there's three different bosses to it. I think that there is like the people who are motivated by influencers, whether they be like the whole crisis King, you know, I think this is what I'm signaling, or whether it be like the trad wife movements on Instagram. You see those women who like they've got makeup and their milk and cow and they have fourteen kids running around.

And then you have they're millionaires.

And then you have they're millionaires.

You're millionaires, right, They're just millionaires.

You're millionaires, right, They're just millionaires.

Models and millionaires, I know.

Models and millionaires, I know.

And then you have people who have real crave towards towards authenticity where you I mean, I go to I've gone to a lad of miss I'm Catholic too, so I've gone a lot of mass several times in my life. There are a bunch of young people and they do tend to sit there within the veils. And then I think the third bucket are people who are defenders of Western civilization or just see that the culture is rotted, so they sit there and say, like, look, the West is worth defending, and it's not in the terms of like the post World War two neoliberal philosophy, like the real West of what it means to be a West Journey. I think that's more of like like a sense Trump thing.

And then you have people who have real crave towards towards authenticity where you I mean, I go to I've gone to a lad of miss I'm Catholic too, so I've gone a lot of mass several times in my life. There are a bunch of young people and they do tend to sit there within the veils. And then I think the third bucket are people who are defenders of Western civilization or just see that the culture is rotted, so they sit there and say, like, look, the West is worth defending, and it's not in the terms of like the post World War two neoliberal philosophy, like the real West of what it means to be a West Journey. I think that's more of like like a sense Trump thing.

Yeah, I was just going to say, like, when you put that together, I'm thinking of like, you know, how appealing JD. Vance was to so many or is to so many, like my students and so on, that kind of like he's religious. He sort of rejects that old liberal consensus, you know, right, I mean he's like, well, I don't know, like we're going to deal with western.

Yeah, I was just going to say, like, when you put that together, I'm thinking of like, you know, how appealing JD. Vance was to so many or is to so many, like my students and so on, that kind of like he's religious. He sort of rejects that old liberal consensus, you know, right, I mean he's like, well, I don't know, like we're going to deal with western.

North Carolina and their problems before we do other things.

North Carolina and their problems before we do other things.

Yeah, right now, I worked for JD. And I think JD I fill out a lot of you know things. Where as a kid, I don't think he went to church very often. They read the Bible a lot, but they didn't go to church. They weren't part of an organized religion, which is a story of a lot of people in lower income communities. And that conversion towards being a practicing Catholic came once he had college degree and money, and it's and I think marriage to that story is something that is more common than people. Now, hey, we'll be right back after this. The last question I want to get to you, and you've written about this for Hannah's Children, which is a really good book. I want to emphasize that to my listeners. You bring up a lot of times these women who have a lot of kids, but we are seeing a big gender divide when it comes to women and men. Women are more likely to leave faith than not for the first time. Young men are more likely to belong to a church than young women. What is going on with young women? I hate to say it, but yeah.

Yeah, right now, I worked for JD. And I think JD I fill out a lot of you know things. Where as a kid, I don't think he went to church very often. They read the Bible a lot, but they didn't go to church. They weren't part of an organized religion, which is a story of a lot of people in lower income communities. And that conversion towards being a practicing Catholic came once he had college degree and money, and it's and I think marriage to that story is something that is more common than people. Now, hey, we'll be right back after this. The last question I want to get to you, and you've written about this for Hannah's Children, which is a really good book. I want to emphasize that to my listeners. You bring up a lot of times these women who have a lot of kids, but we are seeing a big gender divide when it comes to women and men. Women are more likely to leave faith than not for the first time. Young men are more likely to belong to a church than young women. What is going on with young women? I hate to say it, but yeah.

That's great, Like, don't give me an easy question to answered. Man, I don't know. I mean, I'm inclined a little bit towards the direction of the thesis that you know, people people like Alibastucky talk about where you know, just you know, as a kind of a class of explanations. I mean, to some extent other commentators where you know, you look at young women who are kind of they are other focused. They're empathetic, they want to do good, they want to help people.

That's great, Like, don't give me an easy question to answered. Man, I don't know. I mean, I'm inclined a little bit towards the direction of the thesis that you know, people people like Alibastucky talk about where you know, just you know, as a kind of a class of explanations. I mean, to some extent other commentators where you know, you look at young women who are kind of they are other focused. They're empathetic, they want to do good, they want to help people.

That's all.

That's all.

We kind of associate that with with a female charism, if you will, And and they just are applying it to the world, right, you know, like they want to take care of stuff and mother things, but they want to do that, you know, you know, so they kind of take like, don't be nice, and then they sort of spread that out. So it's like, I mean, the thesis is it's like a misapplication of your desire to take care of stuff.

We kind of associate that with with a female charism, if you will, And and they just are applying it to the world, right, you know, like they want to take care of stuff and mother things, but they want to do that, you know, you know, so they kind of take like, don't be nice, and then they sort of spread that out. So it's like, I mean, the thesis is it's like a misapplication of your desire to take care of stuff.

Is it also like a girl boss thing of like rejecting things that seem oppressive? Is that because the religions you know, allegedly oppressed.

Is it also like a girl boss thing of like rejecting things that seem oppressive? Is that because the religions you know, allegedly oppressed.

Yeah, So I don't know, I don't know where we are with the girl boss stuff. It seems like that bubbles burst a little bit. I think that women don't like to be mean, and so they don't associate with politics that seems mean, and they don't associate with religion that seems mean, right, And I think that's.

Yeah, So I don't know, I don't know where we are with the girl boss stuff. It seems like that bubbles burst a little bit. I think that women don't like to be mean, and so they don't associate with politics that seems mean, and they don't associate with religion that seems mean, right, And I think that's.

Like a really big point. That's a really way to put it. Yeah.

Like a really big point. That's a really way to put it. Yeah.

Yeah, And that's why traditional things or like Republican politics would seem too mean.

Yeah, And that's why traditional things or like Republican politics would seem too mean.

For Republican politics seems evil. And you know, certain kinds of traditional religion seems kind of mean too, right, Like you don't accept all that love is love, and so it looks kind of mean. That's the explanation out favor. But we are seeing too, like once women get married and have kids, like they tend to move way closer to their to the to the men in the same age range.

For Republican politics seems evil. And you know, certain kinds of traditional religion seems kind of mean too, right, Like you don't accept all that love is love, and so it looks kind of mean. That's the explanation out favor. But we are seeing too, like once women get married and have kids, like they tend to move way closer to their to the to the men in the same age range.

I think what you could see is this really different two different americas that people live in. You know, I said earlier in the show that if you look at like Mormons, for example, church going Mormons between eighteen and forty seventy percent have kids, and if you look at atheists in the same age range, like thirty eight percent have kids, and the numbers just drop immensely among those who are church going. Those are not going from doing a lot of things that I guess are very sacrificial. It's a lot of big sacrifice to have children, It's a big sacrifice to sit there and do a lot of things. You don't have as much freedom as you would and there's no incentive to demand it. And so I think that that is that you I think if there is a fuel of religion and it marries with political lines, you're talking at two immensely different life experiences that kind of infused.

I think what you could see is this really different two different americas that people live in. You know, I said earlier in the show that if you look at like Mormons, for example, church going Mormons between eighteen and forty seventy percent have kids, and if you look at atheists in the same age range, like thirty eight percent have kids, and the numbers just drop immensely among those who are church going. Those are not going from doing a lot of things that I guess are very sacrificial. It's a lot of big sacrifice to have children, It's a big sacrifice to sit there and do a lot of things. You don't have as much freedom as you would and there's no incentive to demand it. And so I think that that is that you I think if there is a fuel of religion and it marries with political lines, you're talking at two immensely different life experiences that kind of infused.

And both exactly. Well. I like this this line about you know, sort of sacrifice and hard work. I mean, I think I always think like in kind of archetype, the universe of archetypes, there's kind of two things that a lot of people have with religion. You know, one is the sort of the nasty archetype, like it was the cause of all the wars. Everybody fights a religion and inspires people to do bad stuff. We don't want people to be too religious, you know, that's kind of a thing people have. But then there's this other part of your brain. It's like you forget that part altogether. The other part of your brain remembers that. You know, every time you find these stories of heroism, the mother Teresa's, the people who survive in prison for ages and ages, I mean just the ones just released, you know recently, you often find these amazing stories of faith that sustained people through really difficult things.

And both exactly. Well. I like this this line about you know, sort of sacrifice and hard work. I mean, I think I always think like in kind of archetype, the universe of archetypes, there's kind of two things that a lot of people have with religion. You know, one is the sort of the nasty archetype, like it was the cause of all the wars. Everybody fights a religion and inspires people to do bad stuff. We don't want people to be too religious, you know, that's kind of a thing people have. But then there's this other part of your brain. It's like you forget that part altogether. The other part of your brain remembers that. You know, every time you find these stories of heroism, the mother Teresa's, the people who survive in prison for ages and ages, I mean just the ones just released, you know recently, you often find these amazing stories of faith that sustained people through really difficult things.

Can I tell you I've never told the story before, and I have flashbacks to it once in a while. In a I worked in politics in my entire life. That's my whole experience, working on campaigns, and I was working on I was literally just doing like handing out palm cards outside of mailhouse. I met a voting site. This was like when I was eighteen years old, like one of the very very first things I ever did. And there was a woman there running for office as a Democrat and someone said something anti Catholic to her, and I will never forget this because she shouldn't win. I forget what her name was, but she dressed down the person who said the anti Catholic thing her because she said, I never forget when, like I think, when the AIDS epidemic happened, the person the first group of people to take care of dying AIDS patients were nuns. It was not the government. And she made this big defense of none in the religious order, the women's religious order that I found extremely well educated, extremely intelligent, and coming from a very progressive side, which you would not hear nowadays, probably at all. But it's something that was really real and I think that obviously that meant a lot to her and among religious sec religious liberals like the Stephen Colberts of the world, who speak very profoundly on faith and very.

Can I tell you I've never told the story before, and I have flashbacks to it once in a while. In a I worked in politics in my entire life. That's my whole experience, working on campaigns, and I was working on I was literally just doing like handing out palm cards outside of mailhouse. I met a voting site. This was like when I was eighteen years old, like one of the very very first things I ever did. And there was a woman there running for office as a Democrat and someone said something anti Catholic to her, and I will never forget this because she shouldn't win. I forget what her name was, but she dressed down the person who said the anti Catholic thing her because she said, I never forget when, like I think, when the AIDS epidemic happened, the person the first group of people to take care of dying AIDS patients were nuns. It was not the government. And she made this big defense of none in the religious order, the women's religious order that I found extremely well educated, extremely intelligent, and coming from a very progressive side, which you would not hear nowadays, probably at all. But it's something that was really real and I think that obviously that meant a lot to her and among religious sec religious liberals like the Stephen Colberts of the world, who speak very profoundly on faith and very.

Well educated on faith, Yeah, there.

Well educated on faith, Yeah, there.

Is something there that is just different than those who sit there and say it's all hogwash and yeah.

Is something there that is just different than those who sit there and say it's all hogwash and yeah.

So yeah, yeah, totally, And that's going to be the big thing to unpack.

So yeah, yeah, totally, And that's going to be the big thing to unpack.

It's just a fewer Stephen Colberts and they're used to.

It's just a fewer Stephen Colberts and they're used to.

Being, you know, right, And those are great stories they're great stories, and so they're worth nursing our imaginations on them.

Being, you know, right, And those are great stories they're great stories, and so they're worth nursing our imaginations on them.

Well, Catherine, thank you for being on a numbers game. Where can people go to find your book or read what you write?

Well, Catherine, thank you for being on a numbers game. Where can people go to find your book or read what you write?

Give us your plug Amazon. Amazon's a great place to get the book and audible. If you like to listen to books on tape tape, that's not a thing anymore, so Amazon.

Give us your plug Amazon. Amazon's a great place to get the book and audible. If you like to listen to books on tape tape, that's not a thing anymore, so Amazon.

I'm on X.

I'm on X.

You know, I'm not as big as you are on X, but I'm there. I'm holding my own, you know, God willing in the next couple of years, I'll get more out there.

You know, I'm not as big as you are on X, but I'm there. I'm holding my own, you know, God willing in the next couple of years, I'll get more out there.

But well, I hope you write another book because I really like Hannah.

But well, I hope you write another book because I really like Hannah.

It's coming, it is.

It's coming, it is.

I'm going to interview the men next, I'm going to do the guy.

I'm going to interview the men next, I'm going to do the guy.

Well, that's fair. I really want to talk about that then, because that's really really fascinating.

Well, that's fair. I really want to talk about that then, because that's really really fascinating.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Absolutely good luck on the new book. Thanks. I will definitely want I'll definitely pick that up because I'm interested in the men's story. The women's story is very good though. Get it hannahs Children on Amazon dot com. And thank you so much for listening. It's been great. This podcast has been growing. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Give us a five star review. It means a lot, and thank you again. Come back next week and we will have more numbers to break down.

Absolutely good luck on the new book. Thanks. I will definitely want I'll definitely pick that up because I'm interested in the men's story. The women's story is very good though. Get it hannahs Children on Amazon dot com. And thank you so much for listening. It's been great. This podcast has been growing. Please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Give us a five star review. It means a lot, and thank you again. Come back next week and we will have more numbers to break down.