How aware are you of the positive impact you could have on every single person that crosses your path? In a conversation full of game-changing advice, thoughts and ideas, Sarah Grynberg talks to bestselling author, inspirational speaker and organisational leadership expert, Simon Sinek. Together they explore the importance of constant learning and growth, the characteristics and actions that make a good leader, the transformation that needs to take place for us to truly become ourselves, and how to identify the ‘why’ in your business and work to help you create genuine change and achieve success and purpose. If the path to fulfilling your dreams has felt longer and harder than it should be, then this conversation and Simon’s wisdom may help you find the clarity and power to change your future, work and better the lives of those around you.
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A listener production. Hello, a Life of Greatness listeners, I wanted to let you know about my private Facebook group called Live Your Life Greatly. It's a space for our community of like minded people to share their wisdom, discuss the content in this episode, and give advice and tips on how to live a life of love and meaning. To join, search. Live your life greatly in Facebook groups. You can also join me on Instagram at Sarah Grimberg. We have some very exciting announcements and giveaways. Plus, we also post videos and behind the scenes footage of each recording to join my community search Sarah Grunberg on Instagram. Simon Sinek is a bestselling author, inspirational speaker and expert in organizational leadership. He is a magnificent source of wisdom for human society as a whole. In his business, he uses this wisdom to help transform company culture and create a better working world. He is driven by compassion and the clear eyed truth. That presence, purpose, and meaning make up the foundations of a fulfilled life. Simon says, we are not victims of our situation. We are architects of it. This conversation is an exploration of many things. It's about discernment, how to effectively and consistently grow, learn and transform, and the journey to authenticity and self-actualization.
None of us are strong enough to do this thing called life or career alone. We're just not. So I don't know who the hell we think we are that we can manage any of the stresses and strains that are thrown our way without the love and support of people around us, which puts a massive responsibility on every human being, which is you don't get out of bed for your wife to make money and get famous, but it's to take care of the people around you as they need us. Oh, and by the way, we need them.
I'm Sarah Grimberg, and this is a life of greatness. Working as a podcast and radio producer, I have been fortunate enough to cross paths with many intriguing people who have had a profound impact on me. In this series, I share stories and experiences from the people who have brought inspiration to my life, and hopefully yours too. Simon Sinek is a bestselling author. Some of his books include Start with Why Leaders Eat Last and The Infinite Game. I have followed Simon's work for many years and sharing space with him was an absolute pleasure. My hope is that this conversation allows you to transcend the illusions that are holding you back, and above all, teaches you about what it means to be human and the impact you leave on others. Simon Sinek. You are many things, some of which are best selling author, inspirational speaker and organizational leadership expert. Can you tell us how did your childhood shape who you are today?
Um, I was very fortunate to grow up all over the world. Um, by the age of ten, I'd lived on four continents. Um, because of my dad's job, we traveled around a lot. And so I think that that had a huge part to play. Um, uh, my sister and I, who are very different people, both have the ability to be dropped in unfamiliar surroundings and sort of figure it out, you know, um, and, and, and, uh, when you constantly are changing friends and changing schools and changing environments and changing cultures, you know, going from Africa to Asia, you know, um, uh, the, the I think you I've had to learn to navigate. Yeah. Um, and, and that's a large part of, of my work and who I am, which is sort of going into unfamiliar, sometimes uncomfortable places and learning to navigate and, and being unintimidated by it. So, absolutely, that played a role in, in who I am today, without a doubt.
And you you have a very close family unit, don't you? How did having that close bond with your family lead you to be the person that you are today?
Well, I think for one, you know, my sister and I are extremely close. We're a close family because we were the only constants we had. Yeah. You know, grandparents were people we saw twice a year. Um, um, and my sister and I are very, very close because, you know, we were the only constant friends we've both had since childhood. Um, um, and so one of the things that affords both of us is, um, is, is is a is candor and honesty with each other. You know, we give each other feedback. We give each other praise. Um, we keep each other humble. I think she keeps me, um, she keeps me humble. Uh, uh, so I think the I think that's that's important, I think. And in all the work that I've done, having someone who's close to you, whether it's a colleague, a friend or whatever it is, someone who who can speak the word of truth to you, but also can be supportive in your lowest times, I think is absolutely essential. Yes. For every for anyone and everyone.
How did you get into the line of work that you're in?
By accident. Um, I had a marketing consultancy. I came from that world, and I'd started my own little business, and things were fine. You know, we had good business, we had good clients, and we did good work. We were well respected by the clients we worked with. Um, but I fell out of love for it. Um, my fourth year in business, I didn't want to wake up and do it anymore. And superficially, everything was good. So that was embarrassing because I didn't want to talk about that. I didn't want to do something that was look like a dream life, you know, my own business, stuff like that. Um, and so I kept it to myself, quite frankly. And all of my energy went into pretending that I was happier, more successful, and more in control than I actually felt. Um, and so, uh, which is draining, quite frankly, it's a dark place. Um, and it wasn't until a very close friend of mine came to me and said, I'm worried about you. Something's wrong. Something's different. Which gave me this opportunity to come clean. And it was cathartic. And all of that energy that went into lying, hiding and faking could now go into, um, finding a solution. And the solution that I happen to find was this thing called the Y. You know, I knew what I did and I knew how I did it, but I didn't know why I was doing it. And that was the piece that was missing. That was the root of the malaise, the loss of passion. Um, I found my y. But more importantly, I figured out how to help others find theirs. Um, and that's what I did. I helped my friends and my friends started making crazy life changes, and they would invite me to their homes to share it with their friends. And I'd help people find their wife for $100 on the side. And, um, and I just kept getting invitations and I just kept saying yes. And then somebody said, we'll pay you to come talk to a bunch of entrepreneurs. And I went, okay, you know, and so, um, it was an organic it's it was and continues to be an organic journey.
Why is it so important for people to find their why?
Um, understanding your why is the sort of the foundation of who you are. You know, it's it's, um, it's a it's an understanding that foundation, understanding that root of what inspires you and lights a spark for you, um, affords not only a confidence and a calm as you go through life and career. Um, but it increases the, the ability to, to make good decisions. You know, we all have a sense of who we are. And this is why we have a gut decision, right? You know, like everybody's telling me to do this, but it doesn't feel right, you know? And so if we trust our guts, you know, those decisions often go better. And sometimes we don't trust our guts. And we say we we beat ourselves up saying, I should have trusted myself, right? So there's no part of your stomach that makes decisions, unfortunately. So it's not actually your gut. It's a feeling. And and that's where your why exists. It exists in the part of the brain that controls behavior and feelings, but it doesn't control language. And so the opportunity to actually put it into words means that you can actually explain to people the reason you're making this gut decision, which not only gives confidence and calm to your own decision making, but it allows you to seek out decisions and opportunities that are consistent and aligned with your why. And um, also, it helps other people understand where you're coming from and where you're going. So it's like the foundation of a house. It gives it gives the structure, um, solidity.
And what have been the difference, I suppose, in companies that you have done work for that you found really have a strong why, and those that don't.
You know, the ones that I admire, I write about them affectionately and the ones that I don't admire, I write about less affectionately. Um, uh, and, you know, it's many of the companies we love. Yeah. You know. Oh, I love that company. Well, that's a weird word to use to talk about an organization that's trying to profit on something they're trying to sell you. You know, um, love versus. I like their products. That's very. Those are two very different statements. Right? I love that hotel versus. I really like that hotel. Right. Oh, my God, I love it there. Um, you know, there's something else going on that goes beyond the product. And so the companies that we, we tend to have an emotional relationship with, where we'll pay a premium or suffering convenience to continue to do business with that organization, tend to be the ones that have a stronger sense of purpose.
You've spoken about that. The why of being rich and famous and successful. Sometimes is not the why that may work so well.
Well, that's not a Y. Yeah, none of those things are a purpose. They're all a result. Fame or fortune or results of something. Mhm. Um they're not they're not a reason to get out of bed. And if that is the reason to get out of bed, those things are fleeting and not always in your control. Um, not only not only that, they're selfish. You know, my purpose is to get rich. My purpose is to be famous. Those things are ridiculous. And they're really only about you. A true y as an act of service. It's for the benefit of others. Um, so anybody who thinks those are wise are mistaken. You know, I've had people come up to me, I've had entrepreneurs come up to me and say, my Y is to make money. I'm like, no, it's not. They're like, yeah, it is. It's what I want. I'm like, so you just roll around in bed like Scrooge McDuck, throwing the money all around you and rolling around in it. That's that's what brings you joy? No, exactly. Do you just stare at your bank account all day and smile? No. So is it. So what's the reason you want the money? Is it because you want freedom? Is it because you want to take care of your family? Because you want to give it give to charity? Is it because you want to buy art? Like, what's the thing? Who are you trying to support with that money? Or are you just a selfish bastard who likes to sit there and count it all day, you know? Um, so. So yeah, those things are results. That's not a reason to do things. Um, and they can be unintended byproducts, you know, fame and fortune are should be, should be the unintended byproduct of being a part of something bigger than ourselves. But when they're the motivation, um, you know, and unfortunately, we live in a world because of social media where, you know, literally there are young people whose ambition is to be an influencer. Yeah, an influencer of what? I don't know, like, and I'm, you know, just to influence something, which just means they have more followers than the person next to them, which is a, which is a, which is a, um, that'll run out that that kind of motivation runs out or, or leads to, uh, unhappiness.
When in your life did you realize that? Being of service was so important.
Like so many things, these things happen, right? Like, we all have a sense of things. I mean, every human being is motivated by service. It's a biological constant. We're biologically engineered to want to do things for other people, which is why when you give to someone with no expectation of anything in return, it feels nice. You hold the door open for someone and they say, thank you. It feels nice, right? Um, uh, and the reason it feels nice is that we'll do it more, but that's engineered. It's not an accident. Um, but I think for those few who recognize how they want to serve and are able to direct their careers to, to provide for that is, is is deeply rewarding, fulfilling. Um, you know, it's the people who I want to spend time with are people who who live, who have a service mindedness, whether they're and they could be very rich and in business, but they have a service mindedness to their people, to their customer, to their families. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I can't I don't know of an event, but but I think once I realized that I could focus on it, um, it's become sharper and sharper as I've gotten older, for sure.
I remember when I fell into being of service to people and not really even thinking about it, and then having this moment where I was so humbled because I realized I was giving back and I was making people feel better, and that became my motivation to want to do it more and more and more. And. That brings you more joy than money or any other accolades. It's. It's knowing that you can change someone's life, and then they can go and then change the next person and the next person, and you're putting a beautiful effect into the world.
And it's and it goes even beyond that, which is the way the biology works, which is when someone does something nice for you, it releases oxytocin, which is the same chemical you you get when you do something nice for someone. But when somebody does something nice for you, it releases oxytocin. And the more oxytocin you have in your body, not only does it make you feel good, it makes you want to do good. So doing something nice for someone makes them want to do something nice for someone, right? And in other words, there there is a there is a biological truth to the idea of paying it forwards. It's a real thing. Yeah. Um, and, uh, I kind of really like that.
It is. It's it's beautiful. You've obviously worked with leaders for many, many years. What do you believe makes. A brilliant leader.
You know, this question comes up a lot. And I think, you know, there's any number of articles, you know, you know, charisma, vision, you know, I know some great leaders who, you know, they don't have boundless energy and someone somewhat even introverted, you know, and I know some great leaders who don't have big Steve Jobs visions. You know, they're not Elon Musk, you know. Um, I think the one thing that all great leaders have in common is not the charisma and the vision, but I think it's courage. Um, um, it's courage to do the right thing. It's courage to speak truth to power. It's courage to follow your cause, even if it, um, even if the pressures from the outside world are pushing us to do things that are more expedient, more selfish, you know, most incentive structures and most companies only reward us for our individual success. They don't reward us for supporting the team. For example, um, uh, and I think what great leaders do is, is they have the they have they have remarkable courage to withstand remarkable pressure to do the wrong thing so that they do the right thing, you know.
You talked about. Looking after the team, and I think that's so unbelievably important in a leader for them to look at the people that they're leading. To be able to. Get the most out of them. And for those people to be able to then flourish in their own own realms. And I find with a lot of leaders, sometimes they don't like doing that. It's it's more so that the person wants to move into another area or something like that that's not looked very fondly upon. Why is it so important that we look? At ourselves as more than being just those individuals that it's actually more so a group.
You know, somebody in a more senior position in the hierarchy views themselves as responsible to see those in their care arise. Um, and at the end of the day, it's not a it's not a question of choice. Um, um, human beings are social animals. That's it. We're done. You know, we are social animals. We cannot survive or thrive alone. There's not a person on the planet who can go it alone without support or help from anyone. It just doesn't exist. And for people who think they can, um, either they they they struggle or if they do succeed, they do it at great personal expense to their own health and probably don't have deep, meaningful, loving relationships around them. Their relationships become largely transactional. Um, um, uh, and, and I think to simply to recognize this truth and understand how we operate within that is what leadership is about. You know, leadership is a choice. It's a responsibility to see those around us rise. And it's kind of like being a parent, which is every person on the planet has the capacity to be a parent, but not everybody wants to and not everybody should. And leadership is the same. You may have the capacity to be a leader, but not everybody wants to. Not everybody should, you know, simply getting a promotion. People usually want promotions because it comes with more money or influence. But what they fail to recognize is if you get promoted into a position where you're responsible for the people who do the job you used to do, that's an entirely new skill set, and you learned how to do the job that got you the promotion. But are you willing to learn the new job you have, which is to lead? And so leadership is an education. I've never met a great leader who thinks they're an expert in the subject. None. They think they're students and even some remarkable leaders. You know, they talk to their friends. They talk to their colleagues about leadership. They you know, we sit down and we have dinner. We talk about leadership. They read books. They read articles. Even though they could write the books, they still want to read the books. Um, they they are fascinated by the subject. A good parent is reading books about parenting, asking their friends, asking their parents, you know, and it's the same thing. It's it's a constant, constant education, and no one's an expert at it.
Did you have good leaders in your life?
I had both. I had some real shit leaders, and I had a couple of really good leaders. I was I'll one, I'll say one. One smart thing I did when I was very junior. Yeah. Is I recognize that who I worked for was more important than where I worked or what I worked on. Mhm. And I remember when I was interviewing was an entry level kid. And you know, the HR person would say what are you looking for. And I'd always say the same thing. I had the same standard answer, I'd say what I'm looking for is probably similar to looking for love, but I'm looking for a mentor. And I took some jobs that were not glamorous. Um, because the person who I would be working for was remarkable. Yes. And I turned down jobs that had more glamour. Or more money. Because I didn't want to work for the person who I would have to work for. And so, um, I directed my career based on who my boss would be, not based on how much money I would make. Um, and I know people I met a guy who every career decision he made since he graduated university was based on who would pay him the most. Yeah. And the reason I was introduced to him is basically, he was the husband of a friend of my sisters. And basically, you know, he was in a he was in a bad place and just needed to talk to somebody for help. He lost his job. And I asked him, tell me about a time in your career that you loved what you did. And he he could answer nothing because every job he took, he took for the money. And now, at 40, having lost his job, he had no joy from work. He didn't know where to go or what to do. And he had no mentors, no one to guide him or help him. It was the saddest thing I ever saw. And uh, um, so yes, I have learned a tremendous amount about who I am, about how to show up and about how to lead from some great leaders that I've had. I'll give you two examples. Um, so I worked, um, for a guy named Dennis Glennon. Um, a lot of people struggled with Dennis. He was a hard man. Uh, I think he was misunderstood, but he was he was a tough guy. And, uh, I remember there was I was a junior, you know, Dogsbody. And he was senior senior senior's senior partner. Just it was a coincidence that he happened to run my account. Um, and, uh, um. We had a new business pitch at the agency, which is usually conducted by a bunch of senior people, and all of the senior people left for the Christmas holidays, and me and one other woman were left to hold down the fort and what they call prepare the war room. I apologize to anyone who's ever worn you in uniform that they call it a war room. Um, but basically it means put all the research on the walls so that when the senior people come back, they could figure out the strategy for the pitch. Right. Well, that took a few hours, and we had a week. So instead of doing nothing, we decided to come up with a strategy and do the pitch. Ourselves. And the senior folks came back and we presented our work to them, and they actually used our pitch for the for the meeting with the new client or the potential new client. Um, and we didn't win the business. And my boss, Dennis, gave me a huge promotion, huge promotion. They actually skipped me two levels. And, uh, and I thought that was, you know, looking in hindsight, it was a genius thing because he wasn't rewarding my outcome. He was rewarding my initiative by promoting me. What he was telling me is do more of that. And very often the only thing we we reward is someone's is someone's success or failure. But, you know, I've learned from spending time with the military, for example, they know that good leaders sometimes suffer mission failure, and bad leaders sometimes enjoy mission success. So if I if they'd won or lost, the pitch was not an indicator of what kind of leader I would make or what kind of employee I would make, it was the initiative that I took. That's what got rewarded. You reward. They rewarded the behavior, not the outcome, so that I would repeat the behavior because I'm not in control of the outcome. I thought that was genius and genius, and I've taken that to heart. You know, I watch people's initiative and that's what I try and reward now. Um, because again, I'll reinforce it. It's the behavior, not the outcome, that we that we want to we want to encourage. Another great boss that I had was Peter. And to Maggio, um, Peter. Um, he never answered a single damn question I asked. It was the most annoying thing in the world. Peter, should I do this? I don't know, what do you think we should do? Peter, something went wrong. What do you think we should do? Peter? I'm stuck. Well, what do you think we should do? You know, it drove me nuts at the time. The guy wouldn't answer a frickin question. What he was teaching me was self-reliance. He was teaching me to is to think on my feet. What he was teaching me was to stop asking for help and figure it out. And as a result, I became. I learned to trust my decisions. I learned to trust my opinions. And more important, I learned to come up with some options. Um and and Peter one is one of those understated sort of who's pretty you know, he wasn't he wasn't extroverted, pretty quiet, pretty humble, um, very self-deprecating, but, uh, but but one of the best leaders I've ever worked for, I mean, one of the the best leaders I've ever worked for. He's phenomenal. So. Yeah. So, yes, the fact that I chose that course, I think helped me find great people to teach me and how to lead.
How important is empathy in leadership?
It's it's all about empathy. Um. Um, you know. Companies, organizations. It's not just you don't walk in and turn a switch and a bunch of machines start humming. It's human beings. Yeah. You know, 100% of employees are human. 100% of customers are human. 100% of clients are human, 100% of investors are human, 100% of suppliers and vendors are human. If you don't understand people, you don't understand business. Um, and empathy is what creates trust. Yeah. And loyalty. Loyalty. Sure. And and when people are trusting and loyal, they'll give you their blood, sweat and tears. If they don't trust you, they're going to be protecting themselves rather than helping advance the organization. Um, um, I'll give you an example of how empathy shows up and how it doesn't. You know, here's a fairly normal scenario. Um, uh, a leader walks into this, you know, somebody who works for them, walks into their office and says, your numbers are down for the third quarter in a row. We've had this conversation before. If you don't pick up your numbers in the fourth quarter, I don't know what's going to happen. Right. That's fairly normal. Here's what here's what empathy looks like. Hey, your numbers are down for the third quarter in a row. We've had this conversation before. Are you okay? What's going on? I'm worried about you. Right. One views the human being is an output machine. The other views them as a human being. Um, and we may discover in the second one that their kid is sick and in hospital where they've just lost a parent or somebody in their family is is ill or we have no idea. But the first one that doesn't create an environment in which that person would ever reveal that information or ask for help. And so all they do is suffer and struggle, and we put more pressure on them. And the second scenario, it creates an environment which they're more likely to open up to us, ask for help and we can help them. Yeah, we can ask somebody to support them or we can take something off their off their, uh, plate until things are eased up or just sometimes all they need is to feel seen and heard. That's it. And then they're good to go. You know, these the whole point of empathy is just to recognize that there's probably 20 other things it could be than the thing we think it is. We've all worked with people who are sub performers and we label them lazy, stupid, irresponsible. And that was our options, without a doubt. They may be one or all of those things, or they may be, um, ill versed in the in the thing that they've been they've been asked to do poorly trained, um, lack of sleep, uh, struggling, um, out of sorts. Sick family issues, marriage issues, kid issues. Like there's 30 other things that could be. And so I think one of the responsibilities of a good leader is to show up with curiosity rather than judgment. I'm the first to admit it is very, very hard. We are quick to judge. It is easy to judge. Judgment is often, often superficial, and sometimes those judgments are correct. Um, they are an option. They're not the option. Um, but I think to show up with curiosity and to ask the kinds of questions that would lend someone to feel seen and heard or understood is more likely to create an environment in which people will perform at a much higher level because they want to.
And if you do have people that are working for you that are struggling. What? Have you found is the best thing to do. And especially now, I know a lot of people in Australia were still being really hit hard with Covid lockdowns. We're all in lockdown now. We've been in lockdown for months. It's a it's a tough, tough time and people are very much in breaking point.
Yeah, including the people in positions of responsibility. Absolutely. So you know, I always say be the leader you wish you had, which has nothing to do with hierarchy. You know, you can also go up to your boss and say, you can call them privately and say, hey, you were really harsh today in the meeting, you know, are you okay? I'm worried about you. It goes up as well as it goes down. Yeah. You know, uh, um, uh, and, and, and I think we've become more aware because of Covid of, of issues of mental health. We've become more aware of issues of stress and anxiety. Uh, uh, because of Covid. And, um, I think we've all I should know, all I think many of us have really started to recognise that. I think we'd rather have. Uh, more time than more money. Um, that, um, to have someone recognize that we're human and that we have human foibles and human troubles actually feels good. Um, and I think the most important thing, the greatest lesson we can learn in these, in these times is the responsibility we have to each other. And one of the great things about Covid is that when it first struck, the number of people, especially ones in leadership positions, who whether they were effective or ineffective leaders prior to Covid, they allowed their humanity to come out. In other words, they picked up the phone. They called each team member and said, are you okay? How are you doing? Um, well, that's just called good leadership. And it doesn't take a global pandemic to bring that out. I hope that I wish that existed before and I hope it remains after. And it's not a temporary thing just doing quote unquote, these hard times. It should be something all the time. Um, um, but the more we feel that we have someone in our corner. Yeah, I think that's essential. Um, I'll tell you a story. So, um, when Covid first struck, um, uh, we, like many organizations, had to pivot. Um, we made most of our income from live and in-person events and workshops, and that dried up instantaneously. And so we had no choice but to change the way we did things in order to survive. Um, and, uh. It was stressful, but it was exciting as well, you know? Um, an opportunity to read and reinvent a company. And if you're an entrepreneurial minded, that's, you know, that's what we live for. Um, and I remember calling a friend of mine who was active duty military, and I asked him a simple question. How do I stay mission focused? How do I stay focused on the mission and avoid the stress and strain of of Covid because I need to get this done? And he gave me a very stern warning. He said no one no one escapes the trauma. He says, no, none of us. We are. He says, you cannot compartmentalize this. He says when we go to combat, you know, we can compartmentalize for a short period of time. But no one escapes the the trauma of combat. And he says, sometimes you experience it immediately, and sometimes you don't experience it for for five months later. You're not going to escape it. So I called all my A-type personality friends, many of whom were going through similar things, and we were all sort of relying on each other and giving each other advice. And I called every single one of them and gave them all the same stern warning, which is, you know, we might be on adrenaline highs right now, but none of us are going to escape the trauma of Covid. Just be aware, because when we thought it was only going to last 2 or 3 months, back in the early days, you know, I said other people might start to feel fine and life might go back to normal, and then you'll get struck by the trauma. So make sure you prepare the people around you that it may come later. And we all made a deal to call each other. Um, well, sure. Sure enough, right on cue, 4 or 5 months into Covid, I was off my game and I was struggling and I didn't know what was going on. And I was short tempered, and I just there's a lot of I just it wasn't something wasn't right. And I called up the same friend. I said, what are your symptoms? And I didn't ask any leading question. I simply said, what are your symptoms when you suffer the trauma of combat? He says, well, I fall out of my sleep pattern. I start going to bed late for no reason, and I don't want to get up in the morning. And I was like, yep, he said, I become I have really unproductive days, but I rationalize it like, oh, you've been working really hard, is okay to have an unproductive day. It's fine. But then I'll have another and another and another. And I was like, yep. And he said, I become really antisocial. I don't want to ask for help, and I don't even want to talk to anybody. And I was like, yep. And I realized I was suffering from depression. And I was afraid to call it that because it sounds like a diagnosis, but it was a little depression. Um, and so then I, of course, I asked him, how do I get out of this? And he said, number one, you have to force yourself to get back into your sleep pattern, let yourself off the hook with the unproductive days and number and number three, you absolutely have to ask for help. You have no choice. And so I did. I called people one by one and said, I'm struggling, I need help. Um, I actually recorded I called a friend who's a very good advice giver, and I actually recorded it and put it on YouTube, just with the hope that it would help other people. Oh, and, um, uh, and I made a deal with a bunch of my friends, um, which is a, which is a rule that I live by now, which is there's no crying alone. Um, and I said to my friends, if you have to cry, you pick up the phone and you call me and we'll just cry together. And I said, if I have to cry, I'm going to call you. But there's no crying alone. That's not allowed. Beautiful. Um, and I, I, I managed it, I went through it and I went through it. Not alone. I went through it with the love and care of people next to me. And I have to believe that I didn't. If I hadn't had that, that it either would have lasted a lot longer or gotten a lot worse. And this is what goes right back to the beginning of the conversation we started with, which is none of us is strong enough to do this thing called life or career alone. We're just not. So I don't know who the hell we think we are that we can manage any of the stresses or strains that are thrown our way without the love and support of people around us, which puts a massive responsibility on every human being, which is you don't get out of bed, as you said, for your wife to make money and get famous, but it's to take care of the people around you. Yeah, because they need us. Oh, and by the way, we need them. And we don't build trust by offering our help to others. We build trust by asking for it. You know, Brené Brown has done a lot of work in this in this area, and asking for help is about expressing vulnerability. I cannot do this alone. Will you help me? Is, for some people, the scariest thing in the world to say I need help? Um. And great leadership is about modeling behavior. And if a if a leader acts all tough all the time and pretends to have all the answers all the time, it actually backfires because then all the other people who don't feel the same way start to think that it's them because they see their boss that always has everything figured out, always happy, always in charge, always got everything right and I don't feel that way. Then it must be me. Um, and so I think it's essential for leaders to say. Hey I'm struggling. Yes, this Covid thing is really getting to me and I'm Apollo. I apologize if I'm off my game, if I'm a little short tempered, um, I'm in a bad way. Um, I'm going to take a day off. I'm going to talk to somebody and and just just be be patient with me. And when we see our leaders do that, what that means is that when we're struggling, we can call our leader and say, I'm struggling. I don't know what to do. I'm going to talk to someone as well, because if our leaders are willing to do it and model that behavior just like a parent, then it creates an environment which our people are more likely to do it as well. So if we if we are open enough to ask for help, so will others.
That's beautiful advice. How you feeling now, Simon?
I feel great. I feel fine. Um. I feel supported and energetic. Um. Um, you know, one of the big lessons I learned from Covid as well. And this was a huge lesson. Um, in fact, this is the lesson I learned that little video I told you I made and put on YouTube when I was going through the dark time that this had. Actually, I learned it in that in that session, um, which is we as human beings can experience multiple, uh, feelings simultaneously, sometimes even a seemingly opposite feeling simultaneously. And I think very often, especially in a hard time, people feel embarrassed if they feel good or excited because I shouldn't. There are people struggling and suffering, you know, and the reality is you can feel both, you know, you can feel, um, you can feel, uh, I can feel elated and excited at the exact same time as I can feel really depressed and sad when I look around the world and I see what's going on in Afghanistan, and I see what's going on when some parts of the world with Covid, you know, um, I, I, my heart can hurt. At the same time, I can be excited for opportunity and things that are on the horizon. Like we can feel feel two things or more at the same time. And it's okay. You don't need to feel guilty for feeling good when there is bad in the world. But we do have to acknowledge both feelings, you know? Um, uh, and that that's been very helpful. Helpful to me. And I tend to I tend to be an optimist. You know, people say, you know, are you a glass half full person? I'm like, no, I see the glass is totally full, half full of water and half full of air, you know, like there's no half this or half that. It is, um, that that's my that's my natural disposition is to see the good, um, um, and, you know, especially in high stress times, you know, that's not something to feel guilty about. If anything, it helps others see that there is light and dark. Yeah. Um, um, um, so, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying the you know, we're through the heaviest stress. We we changed our business. We reinvented, um, and, and so the that that level of extreme stress has declined. Um, and I'm now in a position of, of, of reinvention and renewal, which I'm personally which, which I'm enjoying.
Simon, you have your amazing podcast. But I listened to this really beautiful episode that you did with your sister, and it was about grief and it was it made me weep and it it brought me full of love. It just was so many unbelievable messages within it. It spoke. You spoke to your sister about her fiancé's tragic death? No. How? How did that change your life?
So again, you know, I can't help myself. I find the silver lining in every cloud. Um. Uh. The when it happened, my my sister, as you said, my sister lost her. She lost her fiance two weeks before her wedding in a really tragic accident. And he was killed right in front of her, which no one should ever have to go through. Ever. Um, and. It was so horrific and so awful. And I remember even I think it was within 24 hours of it happening. I remember commenting out loud to to my family. But that nothing happened to her. She suffered the tragedy. Yes, but she's alive. And she could have been hurt. Or worse. She could have been killed and she wasn't. And. To me, that was the greatest silver lining in this very dark cloud. You know, her fiance's family lost a brother and a son. And I got to keep my sister. And. And so one of the things that gave me was just. The most immense gratitude. The most intense and immense gratitude. Uh, and it reinforced a relationship between two. I mean, we've been we're very close anyway, but it made it made us even closer. Yeah. And my parents played a role as parents would do in that space. And I played a different role as the brother. I was the truth teller, right? I was the one who said, well, you're going to have to go on a date. Well, you're going to have to move out of Mom and Dad's house. You're going to have to do this. You only have to do it once. That'll be the most difficult one. The first time you do this and the first time you do that will be the most difficult. You know, the first time you have to experience his birthday, the first time you have to go through the anniversary will be the most difficult ones. Um, that was my role, and I and I and I stuck with her through thick and thin. You know, I, I slept on her couch for three months or something. Mhm. She eventually moved back. Back into her own place. Um. Uh. Yeah. I mean, the way she put it. In that podcast where she tried to hide that it happened, but then you recognize that it's just part of her story. And in some way, it's part of my story, too, you know? And that's what our lives offer. The highs, the peaks and the valleys that make us who we are. And what a waste, what a waste to go through tragedy and not learn something. Yeah, what a waste to go through hardship and not gain a new muscle. You know, uh, if you're going to have to go through something, if you're going to have to suffer through something, at least get something out of it that makes you stronger or better or a better version of yourself, you know. Um.
Yeah. When you were going through that hard time, that very dark time. Where did you find the strength?
So, uh, I, you know, when when you're the, when you play one of the support roles, you, you know, you put on a brave face and you optimistic and but but you one has to grieve. I had to grieve myself. And so after everyone had gone to bed late at night, I would call friends and I would cry.
It was such a beautiful episode. So thank you for being you and your sister. Your sister's unbelievable, so eloquent, so beautiful.
And it was her idea.
Yeah.
She came up to me and said, there's people or people are dying and losing family members in Covid, and I think I can help. And she said, can we do this, please? And I said okay. And, you know, we we edit our episodes. And that one we took out maybe an almond and, uh, but it's, it's basically one take. I mean, there's we changed. We took nothing out and changed nothing. And it's, you know, like I said, an almond or, you know, that was about it, but that's. Yeah, that was just a straight 25 minute conversation that just we just started and hit record and that was it.
It was beautiful and honest and. I think it it offers so much beautiful advice. I was very moved by it.
Thank you. That was the idea. I appreciate it.
How important and funnily enough, coming off what we've just discussing, how important is family to you?
I mean, it's everything, right? Yeah.
Especially from a work perspective when people are trying to balance their work and family.
The.
There's a cost for everything. Yeah. So if you have devoted yourself to your work, then that's going to come at a cost. And if you've devoted yourself 100% only to yourself, that's going to come to at a cost. If you devote yourself only to your family, that's going to come at a cost. And I think one of the things we don't do is weigh those costs and just recognize to go in with eyes wide open, right? Which is if you want to devote yourself to your work and your own ambitions, totally legitimate your life. You get to live it however you want. Um, but understand some of the cost might be the relationship you have with your children. Is it worth it? And if the answer is yes, then batter up. If the answer is no, then perhaps some adjustments are necessary. It's so funny you asked this question. A friend of mine just called me today and said I need help with boundaries. She said, I need help knowing how. When am I working too much? Like I love my work, I enjoy working, I work a lot. I work all the time and people keep telling me I need to work less and I need more balance. What? What's balance? And my answer was, um, you know, when you work hard for something that you don't love, it's called stress. When you work hard for something you do love, it's called passion. So the amount of time you're working is not the indication of of the balance, because we can love what we're doing. That's why we do it all the time. We don't feel forced. We we cherish it. I said so, so it's not hours in the day. I can't tell you. You have to stop working at a certain time. You know that. That's not the thing I said. The thing is the cost, which is if you find that your work is coming at the sacrifice of relationships with your family, with your friends, with your dating life, uh, if it's coming at the cost of your own health, your ability to do the things you love. Um. Uh, then then you need to dial it back. Um, um, I said, you know, if you've devoted I said maybe, maybe, maybe making a little less money from commissions. She's she's in sales is okay. You know, and and the analogy, the analogy was like a speeding car. You know, a car with 500 horsepower can drive, you know, 200 miles an hour, but it takes a thousand horsepower to get to 230 miles an hour. So why so much extra energy to make that small little amount? It's because, like, as you're driving faster and faster and faster through the air, the air becomes thicker and thicker and thicker. And I think our careers are the same, which is you can make a like if you're especially if you're in commission, like you can make a decent amount of money with a certain amount of energy and to for for a little bit more money, it takes a huge amount of energy.
Mhm.
And so the question is is it worth all the extra energy for such a small game. Large energy should bring large gain but large energy shouldn't bring small gain. And so maybe to sacrifice some of the gain to preserve some of the energy is worth it.
Yeah.
Um, you know, we in our company, we believe that it's very hard to do work that's 100% good. And so we recommend to people make it 80% good because the first 80% like you have to write a paper or you have to do a proposal or you have to write a PowerPoint or whatever it is to bang out an 80% job. It's actually not that hard. Yeah. You know, you can bang out an 80% in a in a few hours. It's the last 20%. That's excruciating. And so what we say is do a decent 80% job, then hand it to somebody else and ask them to make it 80% better. And now it's a pretty good document. And then give it back to you and you can make it 80% better. And now you're like at 99%. And so this goes back to partnership and teamwork, which is it's too much effort to try and make everything great ourselves. But if we work together, it's actually a lot. It's actually a lot less work.
How have you managed in your own life to get that balance?
Who says I have it?
Um, yes.
That's true.
Um, so I, I'm, um, again, I learned the hard way, which is I got to the point where I was out of balance first and I said, okay, I've got to make a correction. And the way it happened, there was an incident that really revealed it to me, which is, I remember this is in the early days where sort of I was chief cook and bottle washer and um, uh, I remember, um, uh, I came out of a meeting and I had some voice messages, and I listened to them, and there was somebody who was extremely angry at me because I hadn't returned their email. And I was like, what the heck? I was in a meeting like, I can't like, I'm not reading your emails when I'm in. And I realized I was getting angry at them. But the reason was me. It's because I would reply to emails so quickly, so often because I'd have my my, my phone attached to me all the time that I had trained everybody that I would get back to you immediately. The problem wasn't there is the problem was mine.
Yes.
Um, and so I made a decision on that day that I unless it was an emergency, I will not return emails immediately and I will never respond to an email in the evening. And I will never respond to an email on a weekend. Um. Uh, again, there was always exceptions. I might read them, but I won't respond. And the reason is very simple. When somebody sends me a message on a, on a Saturday, that's a it's a work related email. I don't want to train them to think that they can email me every Saturday. Yeah. Because then if I happen to be out with my friends and family because it's a frickin Saturday, then I don't want to get in trouble because I didn't get back to them, because I train them that I get back to people on Saturdays. So I read it, and then I mark it as unread and then come in Monday morning and I respond.
You know, it reminded me, actually, of something in that, uh, episode you did with your sister that it was so beautiful when the death had occurred, you said to your boss that if your sister calls, doesn't matter what meeting you're in. It doesn't matter how many times it happens. If she needs you, you will go straight away. And I just thought, My God, yes, that is so important and such a beautiful message for everyone to hear. If there in a circumstance that doesn't even have to be similar, but something that's really affected their family.
You know, we all say our our family is the most important thing to us, and yet we make decisions that don't prioritize our family. Yeah. And when you have an extreme experience, like what my sister went through it, it forces that perspective. It forces you to, to to really put your money where your mouth is. And that's exactly what I did. I took a little time off work and my my work was great. They, you know, they said to me, take the time you need to be with your family. They were really fantastic. And when I came back, I just sat down with my boss and just had a very civilized and polite conversation, and I wasn't making a request. I've made a very polite demand, you know, um, I wasn't asking permission. I said, uh, it may not happen at all, but if she calls me and needs me, it doesn't matter what meeting I'm sitting in, it doesn't matter what I'm doing. I'm going to politely excuse myself. I'm going to leave immediately, and I did. It happened twice. I got a message that says I need you. And I walked out. Um. And the funny thing is, is, is, is and again, this goes back to good leadership and trust, which is my team wanted that for me. And they filled in the gaps. They, they just whatever I was working and they picked it up and they continued it, you know, as I would have done for them. Um, and this goes back to empathy, right? They didn't see me as a machine. They saw me as a human. They saw me as a brother.
Yeah. Um.
Uh, which, by the way, they are to everybody. Everybody is someone, son and someone's daughter. Every single one of us. And some of us are brothers and sisters as well. Or mothers and fathers. Um, we all have that in common. Um, um. And so when you ask me, like, how do I how do I create my own boundaries? I mean, there's a couple little rules I follow. You know, like I said about the email one and I also, um, I also found that I was, uh, de prioritizing what I considered less important things. So for example, exercise. Right. I, I would, I wanted to work out or do something for me, but then this important meeting came up and I would cancel my exercise and do the meeting. And then before I know it, three weeks have gone by and haven't worked out. Um, and so I started creating. I started creating those things. I started making those things, things more sacrosanct. So I wanted to work out at 3:00 in the afternoon, it would go in my calendar workout and that was it. And somebody would call and say, are you available at 3:00 on Thursday? And I look at my calendar, it's a workout and I'd say, sorry, I have something booked right then. And it just became. I just prioritized it. And and I got good at it. You know, again, there's always exceptions. But as a rule, I pretty much followed it, you know, and and I got good at it where I started blocking off 3 or 4 hours at a time for me in the middle of the week, and I could read a book or catch up. I don't really read a lot of books, but I could read magazines, or I could watch a movie, or I could go to a museum, or I could run some errands, or I should catch up on emails, like I could do whatever I wanted with those three hours. Those are my hours. I had no responsibility to do anything for anyone but whatever I wanted. And people would say, can you meet at 3:00 on Thursday afternoon? And I'd say, I'm sorry, I can't. I've got something, I've got something booked. And what I had booked was whatever I wanted.
Yeah.
And I'm pretty good at that. I do that still to this day, where I'll just go ahead in my calendar like 3 or 4 weeks and just block off these random times. Um, and they're mine. Yeah. And they don't get filled in. Um, and it helps me maintain a little bit of sanity and balance and turns out work doesn't sacrifice. It doesn't get like there's no loss of productivity.
No, because you feel good as well. You mentally feel good because you've done some stuff for yourself. And and then you can go back to doing the work without feeling that that's all that you do.
And I and I have no problem rationalizing it. You know, for the number of nights I've worked, weekends I've worked, you know, occasionally I sacrifice some time during the week. Yeah. You know, I see it's just it I'm just equaling it out, you know, uh, so it's it's like you, you know, you have a brutal few few weeks at work. You come into your team and say, why don't you take Monday off?
Yeah. Yeah.
Like it's it's.
Not, it's.
It's it's the right thing to do to balance it out a little.
Bit.
And you enjoy that time so much as well, especially when you've worked so hard.
I think it's it's partially enjoyment. It's also partially guilt, you know, which is if I just have to like go to the dry cleaners, you know, or drop off a couple of things or take something back, you know, return something, you know, and that's the only time I've got, uh. I do it guilt free?
Yes.
Simon, what's the best advice that you have ever been given?
So I remember I was a junior kid in a big marketing firm, and the senior client came for a meeting, and all the senior folks on my account were in the meeting. The only reason I was invited was to run the PowerPoint.
Um.
That was my entire responsibility. But I worked on the account on the day to day basis where the senior folks didn't. And so a lot of the stuff they were discussing, I actually had more information than they did, because I actually I actually knew. And so I kept they would they would discuss it and I'd sort of offer some more. And I wasn't trying to show off or correct anybody. I just knew information that they didn't know, you know. Um, and then as we left the meeting, one of the senior partners put her arm around me, uh, Laurie Laurie Pollock. And, uh, uh, she was like my work mom. You know, uh, she looked after me, and she put her arm around me as we walked out the meeting, and she said one sentence to me that stuck with me ever since. She said three quarters of an answer is better than an answer and a half. And I'll sit in meetings now where you see it all the time, where you sit around and somebody says something and somebody goes, well, I just want to build on what Stacy said. You know, I just.
Like to I just like.
To echo what Sarah said. It's like, really? You need to echo it because we didn't hear it the first time. Like, you're going to just say it again. So. So you can hear yourself speak. You know, we're all guilty of it. We've all done it. Yeah.
But just like.
Build on what they say, that's that's an answer and a half. And I've caught myself where I want to add a little bit of something and I'm like, it's fine. It's fine. Uh, so yeah, three quarters of an answer is better than an answer and a half I have learned.
I love that. What is the lesson that is taking you the longest to learn?
Uh, well, that's a hard question, right? Because the lessons come quickly.
Yeah.
You might still be learning it.
You know, the like. Like it takes three years of bad experiences, and then you're punched in the face with a lesson. You're like, oh, yeah. Um, so, I mean, I think for me, the, the biggest lesson, the most important lesson I ever learned that transformed my life and transformed my career, uh, was I don't have to have all the answers. And when I don't, I don't have to pretend that I do.
Yeah.
And that was huge. Um, because I used to believe that, uh, especially when I was trying to make a career for myself, that I had to have all the answers. I have to show people how smart I was, or that I could help them, or that I knew what I was doing. Um, but it turns out that, um, everybody knows that I don't. So pretending that you do is actually a folly. It actually makes you less credible. And I come from the advertising industry where they pretend that they're great at everything. Every ad agency is great at everything. And I'm the first to tell you they suck at most things. Yeah, but they'll never tell you that. And I remember when I broke out on my own, I would go into these pitch meetings and they would want to hire me for everything, you know, and I would say, um, well, I'm really good at this. So we I'll definitely do that for you. I said, I'm pretty good at that. So we can definitely do that for you. I said, we're okay at this thing, but we suck at this thing, so I'd rather you hire somebody else and we'll happily partner with them. And they wanted to work with me more. Just because I was honest.
Yeah.
Not because I was good. Um, because they knew there's an old Zen saying, there's an old Zen Buddhist saying is, how you do anything is how you do everything. Yeah. Um, and and so they knew that if anything ever happened, I would just tell them what happened. But I'm not going to bullshit them.
Yeah.
Um, so that was a hugely, hugely powerful thing for me to learn. Um, I don't have to know the answers, and I don't have to pretend that I do. And there's something powerful about sitting in a meeting and somebody asked me a question. I go, I don't have the foggiest clue.
Yeah.
I don't even know where how to find out, you know? And I say it to my team all the time, like, I don't know, you figure it out. I'm like, I'm not trying to be difficult. I actually don't know, you know. Um, so yeah, it's incredibly empowering. And by saying, I don't know, it actually gives all the people an opportunity to shine as well, because they do know a lot of them do know. And it turns out we're surrounded by people who want to help us. They just didn't think we needed it because we acted like we knew everything.
Exactly.
What is your greatest hope for society today?
Um, there's an entire section in the book shop called Self-Help, and there is no section in the book shop called Help Others. Um, and my greatest hope for society is that we've gotten so good at at individualism, uh, we've gotten so good at creating infrastructure and incentives, incentive, uh, programs inside our companies to reward individuals for individual behavior. And we've all gotten good at prioritizing our careers and our happiness. And what makes me happy? And how can I find happiness? And how can I find love? And how can I lose weight? Um, that we've all forgotten about each other and I my greatest hope is that we learn to help each other. How can I help somebody I care about find love? How can I help somebody I care about find the job that they that they want to, that they love? How can I help somebody I care about, you know, live a healthy lifestyle? Um. How can I help my team thrive? How can I help somebody in my organization, uh, get rewarded for their performance? Um, I, you know, it's not that individualism is bad. It's that we've over indexed on it. It's that we tip the scale too far. And my greatest hope is that we can rebalance and remember to learn the skills of taking care of each other.
What is a life of greatness to you?
Um. I think a life of greatness is, uh. Well, it's living a life worth living, right? Mhm. Um, you know, to look back and say, was it worth it? Um, and there there's one thing that's crystal clear, which is you can't take the money with you. You can't take the fame with you, you can't take the house or the car with you. And so what does it mean to have a legacy? What does it mean to leave something behind? Um. Um, sure, you can invent something, I guess, but someone will invent something better. Um. Um, and, you know, few other people who can invent something that literally, profoundly change our lives. You know, the telephone, the internet, things like that. And those even though we credit people, they were done by teams. Um, even Thomas Edison had help. Um, um. So I think the to to live a life worth living means that you affect the lives of others so that they will carry on and perpetuate the lessons that you've learned. You know, I'll ask you a question that makes that makes the point, which is think back to when you were a kid in school. Tell me the name of the teacher that sort of believed in you, saw things in you that others didn't see, that took you under their wing, and you are who you are today, in part because of that teacher. Tell me their name.
Uh. There was. There was a lady called Mrs. Ross who was amazing.
Okay, so, Mrs. Ross, that came to you immediately. Now tell me the name of every other teacher you ever had as a kid.
I can't remember.
You remember I can't, and. Yeah, exactly.
And that's the point. Yeah, that's the point. Which is, you know, Mrs. Ross's name. Whether she's around still or not, you will carry her name for the rest of your life. Yeah. And who you are. Came from her in part. And the lessons that she taught you, you, in turn, have passed them on to others. She lived a life. She's living a life worth living, where her lessons and her life are perpetuated through the lives of others. And that's what it for me. That's when you ask me, what does it mean to live a great life? It's that. It's that whether they know that it came from me or not, whether my name is uttered or not is irrelevant, but rather that the things that I have learned and been able to pass on will be passed on way beyond my lifetime.
That is beautiful, Simon. Well, thank you for passing on so much of your wisdom in everything that you do. You have changed the lives of so many people. Thank you so much.
Thanks, Sarah. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.
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