A listener. Production.

A listener. Production.

Actor and social activist Justin Baldoni both embodies and inspires innate human powers that deepen and refresh. He is driven by compassion and the clear eyed honesty of his own struggles with masculinity. Justin teaches us to move beyond the scripts we've learned since childhood and the roles we are expected to play. He challenges men to be brave enough, to be vulnerable, to be strong enough to be sensitive, and to be confident enough to listen. In this genuine conversation, Justin and I explore the winding road of growing up male in America, the struggle of the human experience, and the power of compassion and empathy.

Actor and social activist Justin Baldoni both embodies and inspires innate human powers that deepen and refresh. He is driven by compassion and the clear eyed honesty of his own struggles with masculinity. Justin teaches us to move beyond the scripts we've learned since childhood and the roles we are expected to play. He challenges men to be brave enough, to be vulnerable, to be strong enough to be sensitive, and to be confident enough to listen. In this genuine conversation, Justin and I explore the winding road of growing up male in America, the struggle of the human experience, and the power of compassion and empathy.

When I have allowed myself to feel the pain, when I've allowed myself the chance to cry, those tears that I need to cry, when I need to cry them, it's kind of like the rain. You know how the rain comes and it brings life, brings.

When I have allowed myself to feel the pain, when I've allowed myself the chance to cry, those tears that I need to cry, when I need to cry them, it's kind of like the rain. You know how the rain comes and it brings life, brings.

Green.

Green.

Fertilizes the soil and things grow. When it rains, there's a drought when it doesn't.

Fertilizes the soil and things grow. When it rains, there's a drought when it doesn't.

I'm Sarah Grimberg, and this is a life of greatness. Working as a podcast and radio producer, I have been fortunate enough to cross paths with many intriguing people who have had a profound impact on me. In this series, I share stories and experiences from the people who have brought inspiration to my life, and hopefully yours too. Justin Baldoni is the author of the book Man Enough Undefining My Masculinity. More than anything, this conversation is a call to reconnect with that which makes us innately human and the power of commitment to persistent personal growth. Justin offers simple strategies to regain our fullest capacities for the world we inhabit, and shines a light on our inherent Self-worth. My hope is that Justin's words ignite the inner change you seek most, and guide you to reimagine what it means to be a man or woman enough, and in the process, what it means to be human. Justin, you grew up in a beautiful family, but tell us, how were the younger years for you? Mm.

I'm Sarah Grimberg, and this is a life of greatness. Working as a podcast and radio producer, I have been fortunate enough to cross paths with many intriguing people who have had a profound impact on me. In this series, I share stories and experiences from the people who have brought inspiration to my life, and hopefully yours too. Justin Baldoni is the author of the book Man Enough Undefining My Masculinity. More than anything, this conversation is a call to reconnect with that which makes us innately human and the power of commitment to persistent personal growth. Justin offers simple strategies to regain our fullest capacities for the world we inhabit, and shines a light on our inherent Self-worth. My hope is that Justin's words ignite the inner change you seek most, and guide you to reimagine what it means to be a man or woman enough, and in the process, what it means to be human. Justin, you grew up in a beautiful family, but tell us, how were the younger years for you? Mm.

Um, I think the younger years for me were similar to a lot of young boys. Really. And the difference is that. Yeah, I have a beautiful family, amazing parents, awesome sister, and, uh, raised in a very spiritual household, learning about equality and social justice. But, um, but I wasn't immune to the ways that we socialize young boys in the world. And, and really, my a lot of my early memories are feeling excluded and lonely and and conflicted and anxiety all around other boys all around. Um, fitting in, wanting to be a part of a group. Wanting to have friends. Um, wanting girls to like me. All the stuff that a lot of us boys and I think humans experience. Um, and really, that that is a lot of the work that I'm, uh, undoing and looking at now in my life and going to therapy about also a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff with my parents in terms of, yeah, they were very open. But there's a difference between being open and emotional and open and vulnerable. Yeah. And my parents never really let me in. They didn't really share everything. And not that a parent should share everything, but didn't really let me into some of their struggles. Um, using some of their life situations as a way to teach, really to sit me down and talk to me about how my body was changing and sex and all these types of things. We never I never had that. And a lot of people don't have that. We learned through other boys and peer pressure and each other and things like that. So yeah, so it was it was great. And also it was terrible, like a lot of, uh, like a lot of young people.

Um, I think the younger years for me were similar to a lot of young boys. Really. And the difference is that. Yeah, I have a beautiful family, amazing parents, awesome sister, and, uh, raised in a very spiritual household, learning about equality and social justice. But, um, but I wasn't immune to the ways that we socialize young boys in the world. And, and really, my a lot of my early memories are feeling excluded and lonely and and conflicted and anxiety all around other boys all around. Um, fitting in, wanting to be a part of a group. Wanting to have friends. Um, wanting girls to like me. All the stuff that a lot of us boys and I think humans experience. Um, and really, that that is a lot of the work that I'm, uh, undoing and looking at now in my life and going to therapy about also a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff with my parents in terms of, yeah, they were very open. But there's a difference between being open and emotional and open and vulnerable. Yeah. And my parents never really let me in. They didn't really share everything. And not that a parent should share everything, but didn't really let me into some of their struggles. Um, using some of their life situations as a way to teach, really to sit me down and talk to me about how my body was changing and sex and all these types of things. We never I never had that. And a lot of people don't have that. We learned through other boys and peer pressure and each other and things like that. So yeah, so it was it was great. And also it was terrible, like a lot of, uh, like a lot of young people.

You are obviously a parent. I'm a parent. And I think, oh, how.

You are obviously a parent. I'm a parent. And I think, oh, how.

Old, how old is your your child.

Old, how old is your your child.

My I've got two kids. My son is eight and my daughter is six, and we're feeling our way through. Yeah. Like I mean.

My I've got two kids. My son is eight and my daughter is six, and we're feeling our way through. Yeah. Like I mean.

Yeah, we all do, right? No, no.

Yeah, we all do, right? No, no.

One has the playbook. And I think back to when I was young and things were I think, oh, maybe my parents could have done this, but I think they were so young when they had me. I mean, they were in their early 20s, like how they didn't know anything like, you know, it was it was, it was they were just feeling it out as we are. And I mean, I feel like there's a lot more resources for us these days to be able to go get that book or speak to that thought leader about raising kids. But you mentioned something which comes into my wheelhouse a lot. And it's you grew up in a spiritual family, which I feel is quite unique, and especially back when you were young. What kind of things, from a spiritual perspective did your parents share with you when you were younger?

One has the playbook. And I think back to when I was young and things were I think, oh, maybe my parents could have done this, but I think they were so young when they had me. I mean, they were in their early 20s, like how they didn't know anything like, you know, it was it was, it was they were just feeling it out as we are. And I mean, I feel like there's a lot more resources for us these days to be able to go get that book or speak to that thought leader about raising kids. But you mentioned something which comes into my wheelhouse a lot. And it's you grew up in a spiritual family, which I feel is quite unique, and especially back when you were young. What kind of things, from a spiritual perspective did your parents share with you when you were younger?

Yeah, first of all, I agree completely. I mean, we're all figuring this out as we go. It's amazing that humanity is still existing. Yeah. How long we will exist for? Nobody knows. But it's really. We're all faking it till we make it right. Like, you know, all of us have that imposter syndrome when we first have our child. It's like, what? You're going to leave me with this thing? This you. You're trusting me. This with this little living, breathing organism. I'm. How how are. You know, we all have that moment. My wife and I looking at each other like, what do we do now? Yeah.

Yeah, first of all, I agree completely. I mean, we're all figuring this out as we go. It's amazing that humanity is still existing. Yeah. How long we will exist for? Nobody knows. But it's really. We're all faking it till we make it right. Like, you know, all of us have that imposter syndrome when we first have our child. It's like, what? You're going to leave me with this thing? This you. You're trusting me. This with this little living, breathing organism. I'm. How how are. You know, we all have that moment. My wife and I looking at each other like, what do we do now? Yeah.

Oh, I remember when I had my son, because he's my eldest, I had never changed a nappy before of any child. And I remember thinking to myself.

Oh, I remember when I had my son, because he's my eldest, I had never changed a nappy before of any child. And I remember thinking to myself.

Should a nappy?

Should a nappy?

Yeah, like a diaper. Is that a diaper or a diaper? Um. And I remember nappy. I like that. I remember thinking to myself, oh my goodness. Like, I've got no idea what I'm doing. Absolutely none. But, you know, there are so many people around us and they've all managed to survive. So I'm sure that what I'm doing will be okay.

Yeah, like a diaper. Is that a diaper or a diaper? Um. And I remember nappy. I like that. I remember thinking to myself, oh my goodness. Like, I've got no idea what I'm doing. Absolutely none. But, you know, there are so many people around us and they've all managed to survive. So I'm sure that what I'm doing will be okay.

I put the nappy on backwards. The first time that I did it. My wife just reminded me of that the other day. How funny that the midwife had to had to teach me how to do the diaper because I'd never done no, I my sister, you know, still hasn't had a baby. None of my friends had had babies, and if they had had babies, they weren't like, hey, can you change the diaper? I had no idea what I was doing. So the first time I put it on backwards on my daughter, yeah. You know, they had to teach me to wipe, like, you know, the direction to wipe for women because I'm a man and wipe the other way. So there's a lot. So all that to say, yes, we're all learning as we go. And, um, you know, one of the things my dad told me early on was like he wishes he had had a manual for how to be a father because his dad didn't really wasn't a great example. You know, his dad never even said, I love you. I learned, I discovered that when I was writing the book. Yeah. So I was trying to figure out, like, why does my dad tell me so much that he loves me? Why does he never miss a soccer game or football, as you would say? Um, and come to find out, it was because he was deprived of a lot of the stuff. And so every generation gets a little bit better. But if you think about it, you don't have to go very far back to see the trauma. No. You know, and imagine what it was like for my dad looking out on the field when his deceit, you know, when the other dads were there and having his dad not be there and never wanting his son to feel that. And so it became more about sometimes the more one more about him than me, because sometimes it would be for him because like, no, I can't disappoint my son. And other times it would be for me because he knew I wanted him there, and we take that with us as we go. So some of the themes that were present in my household. So I grew up in the Baha'i Faith. I'm still a Baha'i. We believe in the unity of all the religions, as if we're all just different chapters in one book. They're beautiful. We believe in the eradication of all of the isms of the world that we are here, put on this earth, because God loves us and has created us noble, and that we have value, intrinsic, inherent value, and that that value is a gift to humanity and that each one of us have to figure out what our unique contribution to mankind is. And that's one of the purposes of life. The other purpose of life is to develop our spiritual qualities because we need them where we're going next, similar to a baby in the womb, then the Baha'i Faith. We're taught that in the womb a baby has everything that it needs. It's got it's got the the perfect environment The temperature is perfect. The it's it's got sustenance from the mother. It's developing and growing at a rapid rate, yet it has no idea it's growing brain cells and skin and eyes to see and ears to hear olfactory senses, all of these things. And it has no use for them in the womb. Can't use them, and it has no idea why it's developing them, and it doesn't have free will to develop them. And all the while the babies in the womb, it is coexisting in a place much bigger than the womb. Two inches away is this vast universe, this beautiful world with sunlight and air and smells and all of this stuff. And the baby's developing all those things, not for the womb, but for where it's going next, which is just two inches away. And yet it has no concept of that because the baby can't picture it. And one day the baby dies of the womb and it's born into this world that it was existing in the entire time, and it suddenly has a use for every single thing it was developing. It needs its eyes to be able to see, because there's photons and there's light. It needs its its sense of smell. It needs its sense of taste and its skin to protect it. When babies don't develop these things, they're born into this world, um, handicapped, if you will. That becomes. That becomes their challenge in life to overcome. Which is why some of the most incredible people in the world you'll ever meet have been born. You know, whether it's missing limbs or blind. They develop other senses to overcompensate. But in this life, we know we're not going to be here someday. We know we only have a short period of time on this planet, if we're lucky, 80, 100 years, and we know our bodies are not going to be where we're going next. Therefore, the things that we're developing are no longer physical like they were in the womb. They're all the spiritual things our spiritual eyes, our spiritual ears, our spiritual sense of smell, our arms and our legs, our limbs, all of these things, our heart, all of these things. Spiritually we are developing not for this world, but for where we're going next, which the Baha'is believe is also a mere two inches away. We're coexisting with that world as we speak, just like we were in the womb. And this was what I was taught growing up, that I'm here on this planet to develop my spiritual qualities and every situation I'm put in, every, every test or challenge that I'm put in, is an opportunity for me to develop those qualities. Not for here, but for there. And that really, uh, that was a gift for me because it really helped me frame my why, my reasons for doing all the things that I do and why I attempt or strive to be of service, even if it's an uncomfortable thing. Um, and equality was a huge thing that we were taught growing up and learning about the idea of the humanity being likened to to a bird on one wing is female and the other is male. That's not until the wings are equivalent in strength that the bird can fly and that I, as a man, have to do my part to make sure that there's equality. And and so there was a lot of that growing up. But it's different. You don't you don't really get to conceptualize, conceptualize it until it makes the journey from your head to your heart and plants itself in your body. And that's what my work has been about.

I put the nappy on backwards. The first time that I did it. My wife just reminded me of that the other day. How funny that the midwife had to had to teach me how to do the diaper because I'd never done no, I my sister, you know, still hasn't had a baby. None of my friends had had babies, and if they had had babies, they weren't like, hey, can you change the diaper? I had no idea what I was doing. So the first time I put it on backwards on my daughter, yeah. You know, they had to teach me to wipe, like, you know, the direction to wipe for women because I'm a man and wipe the other way. So there's a lot. So all that to say, yes, we're all learning as we go. And, um, you know, one of the things my dad told me early on was like he wishes he had had a manual for how to be a father because his dad didn't really wasn't a great example. You know, his dad never even said, I love you. I learned, I discovered that when I was writing the book. Yeah. So I was trying to figure out, like, why does my dad tell me so much that he loves me? Why does he never miss a soccer game or football, as you would say? Um, and come to find out, it was because he was deprived of a lot of the stuff. And so every generation gets a little bit better. But if you think about it, you don't have to go very far back to see the trauma. No. You know, and imagine what it was like for my dad looking out on the field when his deceit, you know, when the other dads were there and having his dad not be there and never wanting his son to feel that. And so it became more about sometimes the more one more about him than me, because sometimes it would be for him because like, no, I can't disappoint my son. And other times it would be for me because he knew I wanted him there, and we take that with us as we go. So some of the themes that were present in my household. So I grew up in the Baha'i Faith. I'm still a Baha'i. We believe in the unity of all the religions, as if we're all just different chapters in one book. They're beautiful. We believe in the eradication of all of the isms of the world that we are here, put on this earth, because God loves us and has created us noble, and that we have value, intrinsic, inherent value, and that that value is a gift to humanity and that each one of us have to figure out what our unique contribution to mankind is. And that's one of the purposes of life. The other purpose of life is to develop our spiritual qualities because we need them where we're going next, similar to a baby in the womb, then the Baha'i Faith. We're taught that in the womb a baby has everything that it needs. It's got it's got the the perfect environment The temperature is perfect. The it's it's got sustenance from the mother. It's developing and growing at a rapid rate, yet it has no idea it's growing brain cells and skin and eyes to see and ears to hear olfactory senses, all of these things. And it has no use for them in the womb. Can't use them, and it has no idea why it's developing them, and it doesn't have free will to develop them. And all the while the babies in the womb, it is coexisting in a place much bigger than the womb. Two inches away is this vast universe, this beautiful world with sunlight and air and smells and all of this stuff. And the baby's developing all those things, not for the womb, but for where it's going next, which is just two inches away. And yet it has no concept of that because the baby can't picture it. And one day the baby dies of the womb and it's born into this world that it was existing in the entire time, and it suddenly has a use for every single thing it was developing. It needs its eyes to be able to see, because there's photons and there's light. It needs its its sense of smell. It needs its sense of taste and its skin to protect it. When babies don't develop these things, they're born into this world, um, handicapped, if you will. That becomes. That becomes their challenge in life to overcome. Which is why some of the most incredible people in the world you'll ever meet have been born. You know, whether it's missing limbs or blind. They develop other senses to overcompensate. But in this life, we know we're not going to be here someday. We know we only have a short period of time on this planet, if we're lucky, 80, 100 years, and we know our bodies are not going to be where we're going next. Therefore, the things that we're developing are no longer physical like they were in the womb. They're all the spiritual things our spiritual eyes, our spiritual ears, our spiritual sense of smell, our arms and our legs, our limbs, all of these things, our heart, all of these things. Spiritually we are developing not for this world, but for where we're going next, which the Baha'is believe is also a mere two inches away. We're coexisting with that world as we speak, just like we were in the womb. And this was what I was taught growing up, that I'm here on this planet to develop my spiritual qualities and every situation I'm put in, every, every test or challenge that I'm put in, is an opportunity for me to develop those qualities. Not for here, but for there. And that really, uh, that was a gift for me because it really helped me frame my why, my reasons for doing all the things that I do and why I attempt or strive to be of service, even if it's an uncomfortable thing. Um, and equality was a huge thing that we were taught growing up and learning about the idea of the humanity being likened to to a bird on one wing is female and the other is male. That's not until the wings are equivalent in strength that the bird can fly and that I, as a man, have to do my part to make sure that there's equality. And and so there was a lot of that growing up. But it's different. You don't you don't really get to conceptualize, conceptualize it until it makes the journey from your head to your heart and plants itself in your body. And that's what my work has been about.

Do you think knowing those things? Learning that at such a young age help you move forward in life with more ease?

Do you think knowing those things? Learning that at such a young age help you move forward in life with more ease?

No. And yes. Knowing that. Knowing these things and being taught these things does not make you immune or inoculate you from pain, or from depression, or from anxiety, or from all of the things that are all outcomes of the material world. Yes, all it does is it gives you a perspective and it helps you. Maybe find your way back. Find your footing a little bit faster. But it doesn't prevent you. It doesn't. You know, it's like, yeah, you could be the Buddha. You could be, you know, you could be Gandhi. These are the people that suffered the most. Yeah, right. Um, I think the more spiritual you are in many ways, the more tests that you're given. And, you know, some of the most spiritual people I know always ask me to pray for them the most. I know somebody's spiritual when they ask for help. Yeah. When they ask for prayers. Because the most we talk about this, the most spiritual place you can get really is the lowest in the Baha'i Faith. But let's just say you've lived a life of purity and spirituality and spirit, and you get to this place and just before you die, you have a change of heart. You just have farther to fall. And that's really what it comes down to, is, is understanding that, like, we're all lowly, we're all in this together. None of us have a ticket out. There's no get out of jail free card. And and spirituality is individual. Nobody knows the battles that each of us are fighting. Only God does. And and so yeah, so what it gave me is perspective to understand that like, okay, this is happening to me. What's my part in it? What can I learn from it? How can I grow from this experience? There's got to be truth in it if they're feeling that way. Even if I'm getting defensive and I want to fight about it, there's truth in it and I need to listen. That's that's how it's helped me. But it but it hasn't made me immune by any means.

No. And yes. Knowing that. Knowing these things and being taught these things does not make you immune or inoculate you from pain, or from depression, or from anxiety, or from all of the things that are all outcomes of the material world. Yes, all it does is it gives you a perspective and it helps you. Maybe find your way back. Find your footing a little bit faster. But it doesn't prevent you. It doesn't. You know, it's like, yeah, you could be the Buddha. You could be, you know, you could be Gandhi. These are the people that suffered the most. Yeah, right. Um, I think the more spiritual you are in many ways, the more tests that you're given. And, you know, some of the most spiritual people I know always ask me to pray for them the most. I know somebody's spiritual when they ask for help. Yeah. When they ask for prayers. Because the most we talk about this, the most spiritual place you can get really is the lowest in the Baha'i Faith. But let's just say you've lived a life of purity and spirituality and spirit, and you get to this place and just before you die, you have a change of heart. You just have farther to fall. And that's really what it comes down to, is, is understanding that, like, we're all lowly, we're all in this together. None of us have a ticket out. There's no get out of jail free card. And and spirituality is individual. Nobody knows the battles that each of us are fighting. Only God does. And and so yeah, so what it gave me is perspective to understand that like, okay, this is happening to me. What's my part in it? What can I learn from it? How can I grow from this experience? There's got to be truth in it if they're feeling that way. Even if I'm getting defensive and I want to fight about it, there's truth in it and I need to listen. That's that's how it's helped me. But it but it hasn't made me immune by any means.

No absolutely not. Justin, you have your amazing new book, Man Enough Undefining My Masculinity. And in the introduction of the book, you say for all those brave enough to start the journey from their heads to their hearts, you are enough. When did you start the journey from your head to your heart.

No absolutely not. Justin, you have your amazing new book, Man Enough Undefining My Masculinity. And in the introduction of the book, you say for all those brave enough to start the journey from their heads to their hearts, you are enough. When did you start the journey from your head to your heart.

Well, I've started it. I'm still on it. Number one. Um, it's kind of like the. It's. The journey never ends. The goalpost just keeps getting moved. Uh, I, I think I started it at an early age. I couldn't tell you an exact number, but I think I really the work really began, I think, in my mid 20s and like many things, um, in pain, you know, and that's one of the greatest gifts of pain is that it forces us to go in and go deep. If we are fortunate enough to not numb ourselves and distract ourselves, which most of humanity does. If you take pain and you allow it to penetrate you, and you feel it and you're open to it and you accept it, you can actually use it as a tool and you can move through it And and I think pain is what spurred a lot of what, um, what led me on my journey to realize I was on a journey from my head to my heart. I didn't even know I was. I couldn't have voiced it. I just knew that I had these thoughts and these ideas, but they weren't living in my body, and I was stuck in my head. And in the Baha'i Faith, Abdu'l-Baha makes a joke. He says that the shortest distance between your head and your heart is your neck. Like he says, duh, it's right there. Come on. So yeah.

Well, I've started it. I'm still on it. Number one. Um, it's kind of like the. It's. The journey never ends. The goalpost just keeps getting moved. Uh, I, I think I started it at an early age. I couldn't tell you an exact number, but I think I really the work really began, I think, in my mid 20s and like many things, um, in pain, you know, and that's one of the greatest gifts of pain is that it forces us to go in and go deep. If we are fortunate enough to not numb ourselves and distract ourselves, which most of humanity does. If you take pain and you allow it to penetrate you, and you feel it and you're open to it and you accept it, you can actually use it as a tool and you can move through it And and I think pain is what spurred a lot of what, um, what led me on my journey to realize I was on a journey from my head to my heart. I didn't even know I was. I couldn't have voiced it. I just knew that I had these thoughts and these ideas, but they weren't living in my body, and I was stuck in my head. And in the Baha'i Faith, Abdu'l-Baha makes a joke. He says that the shortest distance between your head and your heart is your neck. Like he says, duh, it's right there. Come on. So yeah.

When was the most memorable time that you experienced real pain?

When was the most memorable time that you experienced real pain?

Real pain. Oh, man. I mean, some of the most painful moments in my life have been have been caused by me. Um, relationships have caused a lot of pain. I mean, my first relationship, which I write about in the book, my, um, my second, you know, infidelity, cheating, betrayal, those have caused me pain. Those things have caused me pain. Um, friends who've, uh, stabbed me in the back, if you will, kind of used me on their ladder of ascent. That's caused me pain in my life. I've experienced pain with my parents, um, frustrations of of, uh, of that parenthood, uh, parent child relationship and growing out of it and trying to redefine it and undefine it and all those types of things. And then, of course, loss. I spent the last ten years making documentaries about amazing people who were dying of terminal illnesses. Half of them are gone, and many of them became very close friends. Um so pain and loss is another one. Um, I experienced a lot of loss. A lot of friends. Been to far too many funerals, spoken at far too many funerals. Um, and then I also find myself experiencing pain that others are experiencing. When I see wars and incidents and, you know, we have Twitter and Facebook and CNN. Luckily I'm not on, you know, Facebook, but Instagram. And you start to see snapshots of the pain and the suffering around the world. And I believe all of us, to a certain extent, feel that pain. I know I do. I don't believe we're designed to feel the pain of the world all at once. I think that I think that we're not designed to be able to hold the world's pain together. I think social media has in many ways sped up, um, a lot of trauma for us. Because who? How how do you how do you live? How do you how do you live? Being like with the suffering of the world at your fingertips every single day, especially as a parent. It's shocking. Um, so I think I've noticed recently a lot of my pain has been pain that the world is feeling, and not understanding how I can even move through the world knowing children are dying here, or these people don't have this here, or there's people trapped under a building here and you just are looking at like, and why am I here? You know, and yeah, and I think anyone who has, um, who has developed some, some form of empathy over the course of their lives finds it a very tricky world to live in. Yeah. Um.

Real pain. Oh, man. I mean, some of the most painful moments in my life have been have been caused by me. Um, relationships have caused a lot of pain. I mean, my first relationship, which I write about in the book, my, um, my second, you know, infidelity, cheating, betrayal, those have caused me pain. Those things have caused me pain. Um, friends who've, uh, stabbed me in the back, if you will, kind of used me on their ladder of ascent. That's caused me pain in my life. I've experienced pain with my parents, um, frustrations of of, uh, of that parenthood, uh, parent child relationship and growing out of it and trying to redefine it and undefine it and all those types of things. And then, of course, loss. I spent the last ten years making documentaries about amazing people who were dying of terminal illnesses. Half of them are gone, and many of them became very close friends. Um so pain and loss is another one. Um, I experienced a lot of loss. A lot of friends. Been to far too many funerals, spoken at far too many funerals. Um, and then I also find myself experiencing pain that others are experiencing. When I see wars and incidents and, you know, we have Twitter and Facebook and CNN. Luckily I'm not on, you know, Facebook, but Instagram. And you start to see snapshots of the pain and the suffering around the world. And I believe all of us, to a certain extent, feel that pain. I know I do. I don't believe we're designed to feel the pain of the world all at once. I think that I think that we're not designed to be able to hold the world's pain together. I think social media has in many ways sped up, um, a lot of trauma for us. Because who? How how do you how do you live? How do you how do you live? Being like with the suffering of the world at your fingertips every single day, especially as a parent. It's shocking. Um, so I think I've noticed recently a lot of my pain has been pain that the world is feeling, and not understanding how I can even move through the world knowing children are dying here, or these people don't have this here, or there's people trapped under a building here and you just are looking at like, and why am I here? You know, and yeah, and I think anyone who has, um, who has developed some, some form of empathy over the course of their lives finds it a very tricky world to live in. Yeah. Um.

Yeah. How do you move through pain and loss?

Yeah. How do you move through pain and loss?

It's a great question. Um. I try to feel it. I try to feel it. I try to understand what I'm feeling. Um, and then there's times when I have not been very good at it, when I'm moving through it and just kind of allowing it to affect me on the surface, when in reality there's a whole lot of other stuff that needs to be felt. But I'm not. I don't have the space to feel it right now, because I know I will shut down or break down or fall into a depression, or need to be in bed all day. And you don't always have the opportunity for that because there's children or there's there's work or whatever there is. So, um, that's one that's one tricky thing about being in this world that's so fast paced and on demand, is that it's very hard to find time to to feel pain and to grieve. Um, but I can tell you, when I've allowed myself to feel the pain, when I've allowed myself the chance to cry, those tears that I need to cry, when I need to cry them. It's kind of like the rain. You know how the rain comes and it brings. It brings life, brings green, fertilizes the soil and things grow. When it rains, there's a drought. When it doesn't.

It's a great question. Um. I try to feel it. I try to feel it. I try to understand what I'm feeling. Um, and then there's times when I have not been very good at it, when I'm moving through it and just kind of allowing it to affect me on the surface, when in reality there's a whole lot of other stuff that needs to be felt. But I'm not. I don't have the space to feel it right now, because I know I will shut down or break down or fall into a depression, or need to be in bed all day. And you don't always have the opportunity for that because there's children or there's there's work or whatever there is. So, um, that's one that's one tricky thing about being in this world that's so fast paced and on demand, is that it's very hard to find time to to feel pain and to grieve. Um, but I can tell you, when I've allowed myself to feel the pain, when I've allowed myself the chance to cry, those tears that I need to cry, when I need to cry them. It's kind of like the rain. You know how the rain comes and it brings. It brings life, brings green, fertilizes the soil and things grow. When it rains, there's a drought. When it doesn't.

I lost a friend a couple of weeks ago. And, you know, I think, like you mentioned, just crying and thank you. Just crying and letting it out was just such a relief. And I obviously am female and a lot of females are very in touch with their emotions. Some aren't, but a lot are. Yeah, and I have always been one to cry if I need to cry. And you know, that's just the way I am. Do you cry often?

I lost a friend a couple of weeks ago. And, you know, I think, like you mentioned, just crying and thank you. Just crying and letting it out was just such a relief. And I obviously am female and a lot of females are very in touch with their emotions. Some aren't, but a lot are. Yeah, and I have always been one to cry if I need to cry. And you know, that's just the way I am. Do you cry often?

I do, I do and I don't. I do. I probably cry much more than most men. Yeah, but I still find myself, um, stopping myself from crying quite a bit. And it's in those moments and it's so funny because again, that's why that's why my as a that my book is not from the perspective of a teacher, it's from the perspective of a student. Because I'm the student still, because I can write a book, I can give TEDx talks, I can talk about this on countless podcasts and interviews, and yet I can find myself in situations where my body is saying, release, cry, feel, for God's sake. And my mind is saying, no, not now. Be strong. And this civil war begins inside of me and and I so I feel, I feel both. And then there's times when I just let myself or when it's too much. And, um, and those are the moments where I feel the best at the end, where I feel cleansed. Because otherwise it gets trapped. It gets trapped in our bodies. It does. And it's trapped. It's. I have a lot of unrepressed emotion trapped in my body, despite, you know, what the world might think or. Oh, this guy's woke or all this, you know, stuff. No, I am, I have injuries after injuries that I can't explain. And I know or, um, I know it's trapped, unexpressed emotion. And that's part of my therapy journey at the moment is I'm I'm going to therapy to unlock a lot of that and move my body and to to feel into my body. Because as a man, I've never been taught to feel into my body. I've been taught that my body is a tool, right? It's a tool. It's not an instrument. Um, instruments need to be tuned. Yeah. You know, and, um, taken care of and handled with delicacy. And I think as men were taught that our bodies are tools. They're for work, they're for productivity. Um, and uh, and so. Yeah. So it's a bit of both.

I do, I do and I don't. I do. I probably cry much more than most men. Yeah, but I still find myself, um, stopping myself from crying quite a bit. And it's in those moments and it's so funny because again, that's why that's why my as a that my book is not from the perspective of a teacher, it's from the perspective of a student. Because I'm the student still, because I can write a book, I can give TEDx talks, I can talk about this on countless podcasts and interviews, and yet I can find myself in situations where my body is saying, release, cry, feel, for God's sake. And my mind is saying, no, not now. Be strong. And this civil war begins inside of me and and I so I feel, I feel both. And then there's times when I just let myself or when it's too much. And, um, and those are the moments where I feel the best at the end, where I feel cleansed. Because otherwise it gets trapped. It gets trapped in our bodies. It does. And it's trapped. It's. I have a lot of unrepressed emotion trapped in my body, despite, you know, what the world might think or. Oh, this guy's woke or all this, you know, stuff. No, I am, I have injuries after injuries that I can't explain. And I know or, um, I know it's trapped, unexpressed emotion. And that's part of my therapy journey at the moment is I'm I'm going to therapy to unlock a lot of that and move my body and to to feel into my body. Because as a man, I've never been taught to feel into my body. I've been taught that my body is a tool, right? It's a tool. It's not an instrument. Um, instruments need to be tuned. Yeah. You know, and, um, taken care of and handled with delicacy. And I think as men were taught that our bodies are tools. They're for work, they're for productivity. Um, and uh, and so. Yeah. So it's a bit of both.

In your book, man. Enough. You talk about feeling like you're not enough. When did you first start feeling those feelings?

In your book, man. Enough. You talk about feeling like you're not enough. When did you first start feeling those feelings?

Yeah, as early as I can remember. Um, I think early, early on. I remember feeling those feelings. I remember feeling those feelings, uh, growing up with my parents, when, you know, they would make comments like, I don't know what to do with you. Right. We don't think about these things as parents. How easy it is to transfer that onto a child. And my mom and dad didn't mean to do that. I had a lot of energy. I was a hard I was a challenging child. And they didn't have, like you said, they were just trying to figure it out as they went. But I remember feeling like not only am I not enough, in some ways I'm too much in other ways, which is what a lot of people feel like, right? I know a lot of women in particular grow up feeling like they're too much and they need to become smaller. Um, I know that's something my wife experienced growing up. I'm too much. This person can't handle me. I need to change. So I remember feeling both. I remember I remember feeling like I wasn't enough at school. Um, early, early on. I remember every time I was picked on or bullied, that would be something. That would be the thought. Now I couldn't. I didn't verbalize it. It wasn't something where I thought like, oh, I'm not enough. But it was in in doing the account of my life and these social situations as it relates to masculinity that I realized, oh, that's what I was feeling. It was a lack of enoughness. Yeah.

Yeah, as early as I can remember. Um, I think early, early on. I remember feeling those feelings. I remember feeling those feelings, uh, growing up with my parents, when, you know, they would make comments like, I don't know what to do with you. Right. We don't think about these things as parents. How easy it is to transfer that onto a child. And my mom and dad didn't mean to do that. I had a lot of energy. I was a hard I was a challenging child. And they didn't have, like you said, they were just trying to figure it out as they went. But I remember feeling like not only am I not enough, in some ways I'm too much in other ways, which is what a lot of people feel like, right? I know a lot of women in particular grow up feeling like they're too much and they need to become smaller. Um, I know that's something my wife experienced growing up. I'm too much. This person can't handle me. I need to change. So I remember feeling both. I remember I remember feeling like I wasn't enough at school. Um, early, early on. I remember every time I was picked on or bullied, that would be something. That would be the thought. Now I couldn't. I didn't verbalize it. It wasn't something where I thought like, oh, I'm not enough. But it was in in doing the account of my life and these social situations as it relates to masculinity that I realized, oh, that's what I was feeling. It was a lack of enoughness. Yeah.

How have you since tried to build up your Enoughness realize that you are enough.

How have you since tried to build up your Enoughness realize that you are enough.

Yeah, well, writing a book is a part of it. Um, you know, look, they say when you teach and when you write, it's also for you. You're learning as you go.

Yeah, well, writing a book is a part of it. Um, you know, look, they say when you teach and when you write, it's also for you. You're learning as you go.

Absolutely. Um.

Absolutely. Um.

Every situation I've put myself in as a creator is also for me, it's a service, and it's also a service to myself to remind myself, you know, one of the one of the Arabic words for human is insan, which means they who forget. So one of the oldest words for human beings is those who forget. We forget. We forget the good. We forget the bad. We forget the joy. We forget the sad. We forget the pain. And it's also a blessing because if we remembered all of these things, we would never function. Our bodies might remember everything, but at least our minds don't. And also we forget. We forget about our creator. We forget about God. We forget about all of these things. And so that means that life's about remembering. And so my journey is remembering on a daily basis that I'm enough. And there's some days where I'm like, I'm not enough and I don't want to be And I'm just going to throw a pity party, and I don't want to get out of bed. Right. It doesn't happen very often for me because I have companies and children and a wife. But there's days where I feel like I want to throw myself a pity party and allow myself to not want to be enough. And then there's other days where I just don't feel enough, and I have to remind myself in little ways that I am. Yes, my wife always says, be nice to my husband.

Every situation I've put myself in as a creator is also for me, it's a service, and it's also a service to myself to remind myself, you know, one of the one of the Arabic words for human is insan, which means they who forget. So one of the oldest words for human beings is those who forget. We forget. We forget the good. We forget the bad. We forget the joy. We forget the sad. We forget the pain. And it's also a blessing because if we remembered all of these things, we would never function. Our bodies might remember everything, but at least our minds don't. And also we forget. We forget about our creator. We forget about God. We forget about all of these things. And so that means that life's about remembering. And so my journey is remembering on a daily basis that I'm enough. And there's some days where I'm like, I'm not enough and I don't want to be And I'm just going to throw a pity party, and I don't want to get out of bed. Right. It doesn't happen very often for me because I have companies and children and a wife. But there's days where I feel like I want to throw myself a pity party and allow myself to not want to be enough. And then there's other days where I just don't feel enough, and I have to remind myself in little ways that I am. Yes, my wife always says, be nice to my husband.

Hahahahaha! I love that.

Hahahahaha! I love that.

And that's what I. And that's kind of one of the things I'm working on is every day. Like, can I change my thoughts around my body? Can I change my thoughts around my worth in this area or that area? Can I change my reaction to something and just day by day, becoming a little better, a little more in tune?

And that's what I. And that's kind of one of the things I'm working on is every day. Like, can I change my thoughts around my body? Can I change my thoughts around my worth in this area or that area? Can I change my reaction to something and just day by day, becoming a little better, a little more in tune?

It's like you said, it's an absolute work in progress. And even if we do get there, I think we can fall off the wagon sometimes as well. We're always just learning. Oh yeah.

It's like you said, it's an absolute work in progress. And even if we do get there, I think we can fall off the wagon sometimes as well. We're always just learning. Oh yeah.

That's like the that's like the the spirituality part of it, right?

That's like the that's like the the spirituality part of it, right?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Like the more enough you feel in your life if you ever thought you. Oh, you know what? I've made it. I'm enough. And the next day, something happens. That's a very far fall. It's a.

Like the more enough you feel in your life if you ever thought you. Oh, you know what? I've made it. I'm enough. And the next day, something happens. That's a very far fall. It's a.

Far fall.

Far fall.

Versus being understanding and taking accountability that every day I'm going to work on it. Yes. Right. When you go years and years and years of like, no, I got this, this thing, life, whatever this enoughness please. And then you fall. You're falling off a building. Yeah. I would much rather trip.

Versus being understanding and taking accountability that every day I'm going to work on it. Yes. Right. When you go years and years and years of like, no, I got this, this thing, life, whatever this enoughness please. And then you fall. You're falling off a building. Yeah. I would much rather trip.

As. You say in the book. Our stories may be individual, but there is a universal thread that connects us. And every single man I have known has had countless experiences of feeling like we don't fit in. Can you explain that to us.

As. You say in the book. Our stories may be individual, but there is a universal thread that connects us. And every single man I have known has had countless experiences of feeling like we don't fit in. Can you explain that to us.

We're all so much more alike than we are different. Yeah. You know, some of the most powerful and moving emails and messages I've gotten are from men who I would have expected to have completely different experiences than me. Yeah. There's a there's a person I reference in the book, uh, Javon. And he's a trans man, a black trans man in his 50s. You would think our experiences couldn't be more different. Yeah. Especially since his transition was probably 20 something years ago. So the first half of his life, he was seen, um, as a woman. And now he's a man. And he. He texted me. He has never felt more seen in a book. And that just made me break down. Wow. Because it just again, it cements this idea that we're all the same, all of us. That's how brutal this system is. That's that's that's what we do to each other. All of us are brought up and socialized really, in the same way. And through voicing our experiences, our vulnerable experiences, we help other people feel seen. Yes. Even if, while I was voicing these experiences, I was feeling like I was the only one. Yeah. Because I was writing oftentimes, and I'm like writing and I'm saying to myself, God, I, I know that there's a lot of other men because I've been getting emails and this wasn't just like me spitballing. This is, you know, hundreds and thousands of emails and conversations and messages with men, which is why I write that in the book. But then there's this part of me that's like, yeah, but there's billions of men in the world, and I wonder if this is going to be hard for people to relate to. I'm a straight white guy with a lot of privilege. Nobody wants to hear about my stuff. And then to hear that I'm like, wow, we really are far more alike than we are different. And then one by one, the messages flood in and it's, uh, you know, there's a there's a gay man over here, there's a non-binary person over here, there's tons of women over here. There's a guy just like me over here. And it's like, oh, wow. They're all raising their hands and saying, I relate. Yeah, man or woman person. And that's what it's all about. Our experiences are shared, our trauma and our pain are shared. The difference is as men, we don't share them. So we don't know. We think we're the only ones.

We're all so much more alike than we are different. Yeah. You know, some of the most powerful and moving emails and messages I've gotten are from men who I would have expected to have completely different experiences than me. Yeah. There's a there's a person I reference in the book, uh, Javon. And he's a trans man, a black trans man in his 50s. You would think our experiences couldn't be more different. Yeah. Especially since his transition was probably 20 something years ago. So the first half of his life, he was seen, um, as a woman. And now he's a man. And he. He texted me. He has never felt more seen in a book. And that just made me break down. Wow. Because it just again, it cements this idea that we're all the same, all of us. That's how brutal this system is. That's that's that's what we do to each other. All of us are brought up and socialized really, in the same way. And through voicing our experiences, our vulnerable experiences, we help other people feel seen. Yes. Even if, while I was voicing these experiences, I was feeling like I was the only one. Yeah. Because I was writing oftentimes, and I'm like writing and I'm saying to myself, God, I, I know that there's a lot of other men because I've been getting emails and this wasn't just like me spitballing. This is, you know, hundreds and thousands of emails and conversations and messages with men, which is why I write that in the book. But then there's this part of me that's like, yeah, but there's billions of men in the world, and I wonder if this is going to be hard for people to relate to. I'm a straight white guy with a lot of privilege. Nobody wants to hear about my stuff. And then to hear that I'm like, wow, we really are far more alike than we are different. And then one by one, the messages flood in and it's, uh, you know, there's a there's a gay man over here, there's a non-binary person over here, there's tons of women over here. There's a guy just like me over here. And it's like, oh, wow. They're all raising their hands and saying, I relate. Yeah, man or woman person. And that's what it's all about. Our experiences are shared, our trauma and our pain are shared. The difference is as men, we don't share them. So we don't know. We think we're the only ones.

It's a funny thing, you know, because when I was reading your book, I, I got that that you were, you were wondering as it was a cathartic experience for you. Is anyone going to read this? Are they going to relate? And is it embarrassing that I'm writing these things about my life and you know, all these things that anyone thinks when they kind of put themselves in the public eye. Today I released my first after doing the podcast for so many years, after having a lot of messages from people in my community, they were like, we want to hear your story, we want to hear your story. And they hear snippets of me when I talk to people like yourself. Anyway, an episode launched today that was my story with someone, a good friend of mine interviewing me, and I found myself last night. I had never get nervous for anything and I was like, oh my God, I'm actually really nervous. This episode about my life is like coming into the public eye. Are people going to like it? Are they going to relate to it? And then they're, you know, messages come in in the morning and everyone loves it. But why is it so hard or so scary for us to be vulnerable at times, and especially men?

It's a funny thing, you know, because when I was reading your book, I, I got that that you were, you were wondering as it was a cathartic experience for you. Is anyone going to read this? Are they going to relate? And is it embarrassing that I'm writing these things about my life and you know, all these things that anyone thinks when they kind of put themselves in the public eye. Today I released my first after doing the podcast for so many years, after having a lot of messages from people in my community, they were like, we want to hear your story, we want to hear your story. And they hear snippets of me when I talk to people like yourself. Anyway, an episode launched today that was my story with someone, a good friend of mine interviewing me, and I found myself last night. I had never get nervous for anything and I was like, oh my God, I'm actually really nervous. This episode about my life is like coming into the public eye. Are people going to like it? Are they going to relate to it? And then they're, you know, messages come in in the morning and everyone loves it. But why is it so hard or so scary for us to be vulnerable at times, and especially men?

Well, first of all, congratulations. Thank you. That's awesome. I can't wait to. I'd love to hear it. I can't wait to hear it. Um, look, I think that vulnerability, it's hard in general, but it's. I think it's a little bit different. It's about socialization. It's a little bit different for men and for women. Yeah. And it's also the same for men. We are always looking at other men and in these in these robotic like, you know, almost movie like ways, sizing each other up, calculations happening at a mile a minute in the back of our minds, like, you know, wondering and comparing ourselves to these other men all the time. And the things that we've been socialized to believe are, are make a man a man. Um, a lot of that has to do with mystery and strength and imperviousness and and um power and um, accessibility and all these types of things. And so, you know, the more aloof and and uh, apparently secure and strong and put together and self-assured direction a man is, the more we just assume that he has it all together and and we want to be him. And that's and that those are the men were intimidated by. Those are the men we we respect and or want to bring down. And when you have a man who is open and vulnerable, that then cancels out everything else because you know that that man is suffering, you know he's going through something and you can now use that against him. And that's what it was like for us boys. If we opened up, if we divulged our secrets to other boys, oftentimes we would find ourselves stabbed in the back or or or used and gossips with, you know, all of these types of things would start. It's how bullying starts, all this kind of stuff. And um, and so yeah, so we've, we've socialized ourselves to view vulnerability as weakness, because vulnerability just means to share that which could make you vulnerable to attack, open to attack. Right. And if it doesn't hurt sharing it, if you're not sharing something that really is hurt, it's not vulnerability. It's just sharing. Yes, liability is the act of sharing something fairly radical. Um, to build connection, to build a bridge to another heart, to help somebody else feel seen or a story or or or share your story, to help someone find theirs. To show that we're so much more alike than we are different. That's vulnerability. Yeah. And it's very, very hard to do that because it there's a price and there's a risk. And the risk is will they accept me if they know me for who I really am, will they accept me? If they know the battle that I'm fighting? Will they see? Will they still see me as strong as put together? Well, it's affect my job or my career. Will I still be able to play on the sports team? Right. We've heard about athletes that are divulging that they're bipolar, and suddenly they're not sure if they can still play sports anymore, even if they've been bipolar for years and years and years. All of these things, um, come, come. You know, women in the workplace, you know. Can they really know? Yeah. And because we use these things against each other, we use our humanity against each other. So, um, so, yeah, that's one of the ways that I think that we that the reason it makes it so hard for us to share.

Well, first of all, congratulations. Thank you. That's awesome. I can't wait to. I'd love to hear it. I can't wait to hear it. Um, look, I think that vulnerability, it's hard in general, but it's. I think it's a little bit different. It's about socialization. It's a little bit different for men and for women. Yeah. And it's also the same for men. We are always looking at other men and in these in these robotic like, you know, almost movie like ways, sizing each other up, calculations happening at a mile a minute in the back of our minds, like, you know, wondering and comparing ourselves to these other men all the time. And the things that we've been socialized to believe are, are make a man a man. Um, a lot of that has to do with mystery and strength and imperviousness and and um power and um, accessibility and all these types of things. And so, you know, the more aloof and and uh, apparently secure and strong and put together and self-assured direction a man is, the more we just assume that he has it all together and and we want to be him. And that's and that those are the men were intimidated by. Those are the men we we respect and or want to bring down. And when you have a man who is open and vulnerable, that then cancels out everything else because you know that that man is suffering, you know he's going through something and you can now use that against him. And that's what it was like for us boys. If we opened up, if we divulged our secrets to other boys, oftentimes we would find ourselves stabbed in the back or or or used and gossips with, you know, all of these types of things would start. It's how bullying starts, all this kind of stuff. And um, and so yeah, so we've, we've socialized ourselves to view vulnerability as weakness, because vulnerability just means to share that which could make you vulnerable to attack, open to attack. Right. And if it doesn't hurt sharing it, if you're not sharing something that really is hurt, it's not vulnerability. It's just sharing. Yes, liability is the act of sharing something fairly radical. Um, to build connection, to build a bridge to another heart, to help somebody else feel seen or a story or or or share your story, to help someone find theirs. To show that we're so much more alike than we are different. That's vulnerability. Yeah. And it's very, very hard to do that because it there's a price and there's a risk. And the risk is will they accept me if they know me for who I really am, will they accept me? If they know the battle that I'm fighting? Will they see? Will they still see me as strong as put together? Well, it's affect my job or my career. Will I still be able to play on the sports team? Right. We've heard about athletes that are divulging that they're bipolar, and suddenly they're not sure if they can still play sports anymore, even if they've been bipolar for years and years and years. All of these things, um, come, come. You know, women in the workplace, you know. Can they really know? Yeah. And because we use these things against each other, we use our humanity against each other. So, um, so, yeah, that's one of the ways that I think that we that the reason it makes it so hard for us to share.

In Australia, the leading cause of death for men between 15 and 44 is suicide. Why do you think it's so hard for men to ask for help.

In Australia, the leading cause of death for men between 15 and 44 is suicide. Why do you think it's so hard for men to ask for help.

Because we've been taught that asking for help makes us not men. When you raise an entire gender to believe that that your identity, your masculinity is tied up in the appearance of strength, then by by admitting that you are sad, feeling something depressed or needing help is to then admit that you are not a man. So what's happened is we've created an army, a generational army of boys who are now men, who believe that in order to admit that they are, that they need help. It would come at the expense of their manhood. They would be trading in their man card, their admittance to a club that doesn't exist, and consequently we suffer, and we suffer in silence because we're also taught that that's what a man does. We don't complain. We don't ask questions. We don't ask for help. If we're lost, we figure it out. We find our way. Real leaders are not ever lost. They just detour. We we know where we're going. We know ourselves. We say we can get through this. We don't burden anybody else with our stuff. We're not taught to ask ourselves how we're feeling or somebody else. Feelings are too much. We just are productive. We're doers and we'll get through it. Suck it up. Be a man. All of these things we've been hearing our entire lives what that does. First of all, it puts women down, number one, because what we're doing is we're saying that the sharing of our vulnerability, the sharing of our weaknesses, makes us girls or gay. So we're putting down women and, uh, and and someone else's sexuality. Yeah. So, um, we're homophobic in that way, and we're misogynist in the other way. And so we're dehumanizing women at the expense of men. And then that's so ingrained in us by the time we reach, you know, 20, 30, 40 and even older, which is what a lot of the data is showing that men are killing themselves at much older and much older years now. Yeah, we we're so far gone we don't even know how we feel anymore. We haven't been taught how to how to forge real male friendships because we're not allowed to talk about anything. Whereas women are taught, at the very least, they're socialized to believe that female friendships, um, are are built and rooted in vulnerability oftentimes. And the sharing. But male friendships you can go years and years and years and never know anything about a person. You can know how they feel about sports and their teams and politics and news, but you might never hear about a battle that they're fighting or something that's happening in that life. I can't even tell you how many times I've heard from men that, oh, this person lost a father. Oh, I didn't even know he was fine. He just showed up and golfed that day, or he went play sports. We don't share these things. And then we're trapped. We trap ourselves in our own armor. This armor that we were told we have to put on to be men, to protect ourselves, becomes the very thing that suffocates us, and we don't know how to get out of it. So by the time that we are so far depressed that we would take our own lives, the simple act of asking for help or calling a therapist or saying I need someone is so gargantuan. It's like climbing a mountain that's impossible, that it's easier to end it. It's easier to end it because by reaching out, not only would we be admitting that we don't have it figured out, we'd be then sharing that with somebody else and they would know. And that person knowing is even worse for me. And so we see men taking their lives at higher rates than they ever have, and more violent ways than they ever have. And that is a cry for help. And that is that is an SOS signal saying, we got to change something. And at the end of the day, that's why I wrote the book. That's like people ask me why I was willing. What made you be willing to be that vulnerable? And it's because of that. It's because if we can save a life, if a man can read this story and realize, oh my God, I'm feeling depressed, I need help. It doesn't make me less of a man. That one life can. What can we? What can that man do with over the course of his life? That's why. That's why we do it. That's why I did it. That's why I wrote the book. And that's why talking about this stuff is so important because vulnerability is the real strength. Yes. And everybody and and it's not just like it's not just something that Brene Brown said or this person said or that this person said. It's not this some it's it's actual real strength. The strength that takes for somebody to admit that they don't know the answer, that they're depressed, that they have thoughts of suicide, the appearance of having it all together. I just heard yesterday that the tennis pro in my local town, in my local, the community here where I live, the former tennis pro had it all together and one day they didn't show up for work because he killed himself.

Because we've been taught that asking for help makes us not men. When you raise an entire gender to believe that that your identity, your masculinity is tied up in the appearance of strength, then by by admitting that you are sad, feeling something depressed or needing help is to then admit that you are not a man. So what's happened is we've created an army, a generational army of boys who are now men, who believe that in order to admit that they are, that they need help. It would come at the expense of their manhood. They would be trading in their man card, their admittance to a club that doesn't exist, and consequently we suffer, and we suffer in silence because we're also taught that that's what a man does. We don't complain. We don't ask questions. We don't ask for help. If we're lost, we figure it out. We find our way. Real leaders are not ever lost. They just detour. We we know where we're going. We know ourselves. We say we can get through this. We don't burden anybody else with our stuff. We're not taught to ask ourselves how we're feeling or somebody else. Feelings are too much. We just are productive. We're doers and we'll get through it. Suck it up. Be a man. All of these things we've been hearing our entire lives what that does. First of all, it puts women down, number one, because what we're doing is we're saying that the sharing of our vulnerability, the sharing of our weaknesses, makes us girls or gay. So we're putting down women and, uh, and and someone else's sexuality. Yeah. So, um, we're homophobic in that way, and we're misogynist in the other way. And so we're dehumanizing women at the expense of men. And then that's so ingrained in us by the time we reach, you know, 20, 30, 40 and even older, which is what a lot of the data is showing that men are killing themselves at much older and much older years now. Yeah, we we're so far gone we don't even know how we feel anymore. We haven't been taught how to how to forge real male friendships because we're not allowed to talk about anything. Whereas women are taught, at the very least, they're socialized to believe that female friendships, um, are are built and rooted in vulnerability oftentimes. And the sharing. But male friendships you can go years and years and years and never know anything about a person. You can know how they feel about sports and their teams and politics and news, but you might never hear about a battle that they're fighting or something that's happening in that life. I can't even tell you how many times I've heard from men that, oh, this person lost a father. Oh, I didn't even know he was fine. He just showed up and golfed that day, or he went play sports. We don't share these things. And then we're trapped. We trap ourselves in our own armor. This armor that we were told we have to put on to be men, to protect ourselves, becomes the very thing that suffocates us, and we don't know how to get out of it. So by the time that we are so far depressed that we would take our own lives, the simple act of asking for help or calling a therapist or saying I need someone is so gargantuan. It's like climbing a mountain that's impossible, that it's easier to end it. It's easier to end it because by reaching out, not only would we be admitting that we don't have it figured out, we'd be then sharing that with somebody else and they would know. And that person knowing is even worse for me. And so we see men taking their lives at higher rates than they ever have, and more violent ways than they ever have. And that is a cry for help. And that is that is an SOS signal saying, we got to change something. And at the end of the day, that's why I wrote the book. That's like people ask me why I was willing. What made you be willing to be that vulnerable? And it's because of that. It's because if we can save a life, if a man can read this story and realize, oh my God, I'm feeling depressed, I need help. It doesn't make me less of a man. That one life can. What can we? What can that man do with over the course of his life? That's why. That's why we do it. That's why I did it. That's why I wrote the book. And that's why talking about this stuff is so important because vulnerability is the real strength. Yes. And everybody and and it's not just like it's not just something that Brene Brown said or this person said or that this person said. It's not this some it's it's actual real strength. The strength that takes for somebody to admit that they don't know the answer, that they're depressed, that they have thoughts of suicide, the appearance of having it all together. I just heard yesterday that the tennis pro in my local town, in my local, the community here where I live, the former tennis pro had it all together and one day they didn't show up for work because he killed himself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just nobody knew. He was totally fine. Well, turns out he had gotten a divorce, and the wife had taken custody of the kids, and he couldn't deal with it anymore. He couldn't do it. He felt like he lost everything. Boom. Ends his life. All that man needed was a real friend. Yeah. To come over to his house and to say, hey, I see you. God, you must be in pain. Let's talk. But we don't have that as men. We're not given that gift. We don't know how to be that for each other. All we know how to do is fucking compete with each other. And that's what we have to change.

Just nobody knew. He was totally fine. Well, turns out he had gotten a divorce, and the wife had taken custody of the kids, and he couldn't deal with it anymore. He couldn't do it. He felt like he lost everything. Boom. Ends his life. All that man needed was a real friend. Yeah. To come over to his house and to say, hey, I see you. God, you must be in pain. Let's talk. But we don't have that as men. We're not given that gift. We don't know how to be that for each other. All we know how to do is fucking compete with each other. And that's what we have to change.

Absolutely. And that's why your book is so important. Justin, you really open up and talk about your addiction at one point to pornography. How did that come about? I mean, people look at you thinking, he's a handsome man, an actor. He can get so many women. And obviously this was many years ago. But how did that come about?

Absolutely. And that's why your book is so important. Justin, you really open up and talk about your addiction at one point to pornography. How did that come about? I mean, people look at you thinking, he's a handsome man, an actor. He can get so many women. And obviously this was many years ago. But how did that come about?

Well.

Well.

You know, I am. I was introduced to porn when I was ten years old. Yeah. Long before I ever, you know, could have an erection or even knew how I felt about anything. Um, and it became. It was, you know, like any young boy who sees boobs for the first time, it's exciting because our, our culture has shielded them for from us because they're sexualized. Right. Again, it's cultural. You go to places like Africa and, and different tribes or you see different things and, and the breast is the breast. Right? Um, but we've sexualized this thing, so of course it becomes fascinating and interesting and you're like, oh my God, boobs. And then, you know, hormones start raging. But what ends up happening to a lot of young boys, and by the way, the stats and the numbers of, of men who use porn and who don't even know that they have an issue with it, are so high, is that when you're in those formative years and you're experiencing pain or sadness or loss or loneliness, it becomes something that you use. It's so I sought refuge in it when I felt alone, or when I felt abandoned, or when I felt hurt or something like that, because it was a dopamine rush. I didn't know that then, but. So I had an early age. I trained my brain to deal with pain with the dopamine hit. Yeah. And now I can be spiritual and never have a drink of alcohol, which I never have. Or smoke a joint, which I never have. Be high or do a drug which I never have. But it doesn't mean that I'm not using something in an unhealthy way. And I found myself, over the course of my life, going back to looking at images and videos of naked women when I was feeling necessarily bad about myself. And I knew that I that it was an issue for me when I would tell myself that I don't I don't want to do that. And you would find yourself doing it. Yeah. And it's the exact same thing. And I hate to say it as our relationships with our phones and social media.