Hi there, It's Ruby Jones and I'm back to share another episode of Read This, Schwartz Media's weekly books podcast. It's hosted by editor of the Monthly Michael Williams and features conversations with some of the most talented writers from Australia and around the world. In this episode, we're going to hear from writer Sonya Orchard. Before we begin, though a warning. This week's conversation is about sexual assault and abuse. It's about the failures social, structural legal that entrench and prolong the trauma for victim survivors. It may be triggering and upsetting to hear, so please proceed with caution. As usual, I'm joined by Michael to tell me a bit more about the episode.

Hi there, It's Ruby Jones and I'm back to share another episode of Read This, Schwartz Media's weekly books podcast. It's hosted by editor of the Monthly Michael Williams and features conversations with some of the most talented writers from Australia and around the world. In this episode, we're going to hear from writer Sonya Orchard. Before we begin, though a warning. This week's conversation is about sexual assault and abuse. It's about the failures social, structural legal that entrench and prolong the trauma for victim survivors. It may be triggering and upsetting to hear, so please proceed with caution. As usual, I'm joined by Michael to tell me a bit more about the episode.

Hi Michael, Ruby Jones. Hello, So, Michael.

Hi Michael, Ruby Jones. Hello, So, Michael.

As I mentioned up top, this episode delves into some difficult topics and might not be for everyone. But as you mentioned in the episode, the proliferation of this kind of abuse means that there is actually a very good chance that many of us will have either experienced it or will know someone who has. So with that in mind, tell me a bit about Sonya Orchard's new book, Groomed and why you found it so powerful.

As I mentioned up top, this episode delves into some difficult topics and might not be for everyone. But as you mentioned in the episode, the proliferation of this kind of abuse means that there is actually a very good chance that many of us will have either experienced it or will know someone who has. So with that in mind, tell me a bit about Sonya Orchard's new book, Groomed and why you found it so powerful.

Yeah, it's a really tricky one and the warning is particularly acute this week. This isn't a book that deals with trauma and traumatic topics in passing. It is a book where they are front and center, and in many ways, that's the point of doing this episode. That's the point of Sonya Orchard's book, is that we understand, through things like the Me Too movement, through various global attempts to raise awareness, the ubiquity of sexual violence and sexual assault. You know, the chances are ruby anyone listening to this will have someone in their life who's been affected by gendered violence one way or the other. It's an absolute epidemic. And one of the things that have really well written memoir in this space can do is offer a language for victim survivors, offer them a space with which they can see their own experience reflected, understand the kind of universality of some of these challenges, and maybe hopefully give them the strength to find ways to process, fight, and live with that struggle themselves.

Yeah, it's a really tricky one and the warning is particularly acute this week. This isn't a book that deals with trauma and traumatic topics in passing. It is a book where they are front and center, and in many ways, that's the point of doing this episode. That's the point of Sonya Orchard's book, is that we understand, through things like the Me Too movement, through various global attempts to raise awareness, the ubiquity of sexual violence and sexual assault. You know, the chances are ruby anyone listening to this will have someone in their life who's been affected by gendered violence one way or the other. It's an absolute epidemic. And one of the things that have really well written memoir in this space can do is offer a language for victim survivors, offer them a space with which they can see their own experience reflected, understand the kind of universality of some of these challenges, and maybe hopefully give them the strength to find ways to process, fight, and live with that struggle themselves.

And you note that this book is beautifully written in addition to of course being rigorously researched, and that's because Sonya is actually first and foremost a novelist, Is that.

And you note that this book is beautifully written in addition to of course being rigorously researched, and that's because Sonya is actually first and foremost a novelist, Is that.

Right, Yeah, that's right. Sonya has written a couple of books before this, The Virtuoso, which won the India Award for Best Debut Fiction back in two thousand and nine, and Into the Fire in particular. Both of them were incredibly well reviewed. She's a natural writer and a beautiful storyteller. And one of the things that's really interesting in our conversation that listeners will get to hear is that relationship between the creative ridly life and the processing that Sonya was doing of her own experiences and working out how to share them with the world. The two are interconnected, and it's a fascinating.

Right, Yeah, that's right. Sonya has written a couple of books before this, The Virtuoso, which won the India Award for Best Debut Fiction back in two thousand and nine, and Into the Fire in particular. Both of them were incredibly well reviewed. She's a natural writer and a beautiful storyteller. And one of the things that's really interesting in our conversation that listeners will get to hear is that relationship between the creative ridly life and the processing that Sonya was doing of her own experiences and working out how to share them with the world. The two are interconnected, and it's a fascinating.

Conversation coming up in just a moment. How Sonya altered reclaimed her story.

Conversation coming up in just a moment. How Sonya altered reclaimed her story.

About ten years ago, I was at a counseling session and this just came up as a, you know, something to fill the end of the session with.

About ten years ago, I was at a counseling session and this just came up as a, you know, something to fill the end of the session with.

And it came up.

And it came up.

That I'd had this what I called a relationship, and she said to me, you know, you were violated, and I was just like, no, I wasn't, don't be ridiculous. And she was the one who kind of suggested new words to me for what I had experienced when I was a teenager, and I flatly denied what she was saying to me.

That I'd had this what I called a relationship, and she said to me, you know, you were violated, and I was just like, no, I wasn't, don't be ridiculous. And she was the one who kind of suggested new words to me for what I had experienced when I was a teenager, and I flatly denied what she was saying to me.

And it was only when she sort of spun the.

And it was only when she sort of spun the.

Story around and said, Okay, imagine your daughters are in that relationship. And that's when the story suddenly looked very very different to me, and I experienced what I realize now is a trauma response where I was shaking all over and shivering and it was like a you know, a computer crashing or something.

Story around and said, Okay, imagine your daughters are in that relationship. And that's when the story suddenly looked very very different to me, and I experienced what I realize now is a trauma response where I was shaking all over and shivering and it was like a you know, a computer crashing or something.

That's how it felt.

That's how it felt.

And that was very very confusing because she had just driven a truck through a wall kind of thing, and I was just like, hang on, what's on the other side of the wall.

And that was very very confusing because she had just driven a truck through a wall kind of thing, and I was just like, hang on, what's on the other side of the wall.

You know, what's going on here?

You know, what's going on here?

I don't understand because I stick by my story and this is the story that I've held onto for my entire life, that I was in this regular in inverted commas relationship when I was fifteen. But she has unpicked something for me, and I don't understand what's going on here. You know, a lot of people might have just decided I'm not going to go there, but I suppose there's the you know, investigative journalist in me that took it on as a I need to.

I don't understand because I stick by my story and this is the story that I've held onto for my entire life, that I was in this regular in inverted commas relationship when I was fifteen. But she has unpicked something for me, and I don't understand what's going on here. You know, a lot of people might have just decided I'm not going to go there, but I suppose there's the you know, investigative journalist in me that took it on as a I need to.

I need to get to the bottom of this.

I need to get to the bottom of this.

This is it's too interesting for starters, and it's too important, and it's it's important on so many levels. Sort of socially, it's important for me as a mother of teenage girls.

This is it's too interesting for starters, and it's too important, and it's it's important on so many levels. Sort of socially, it's important for me as a mother of teenage girls.

It's you know, I just needed to.

It's you know, I just needed to.

And and also presumably once you start pulling at the thread, it's no longer a choice to see it through because the scaffolding is down. Just to mix my metaphors from thread to scaffolding, get a single go. But you know, that thing of reassessing story and story as coping mechanism no longer being adequate.

And and also presumably once you start pulling at the thread, it's no longer a choice to see it through because the scaffolding is down. Just to mix my metaphors from thread to scaffolding, get a single go. But you know, that thing of reassessing story and story as coping mechanism no longer being adequate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Part of what I love so much and groomed is that you're in really deft, careful ways toggle between memoirist and investigative journalist. As you say that, on the one hand, this is a deeply personal, very story that you're bravely sharing with readers, and on the other hand, it seems to be one of the new mechanisms you have to make it possible to do that is your instincts as a writer. How can I think about utility? How can I think about where the problems are here that need to be identified? How can I write about it dispassionately. Was that the way the writing flowed out, and was that the way the retelling of your own story flowed out, that you have the arms length thing of the writer there.

Part of what I love so much and groomed is that you're in really deft, careful ways toggle between memoirist and investigative journalist. As you say that, on the one hand, this is a deeply personal, very story that you're bravely sharing with readers, and on the other hand, it seems to be one of the new mechanisms you have to make it possible to do that is your instincts as a writer. How can I think about utility? How can I think about where the problems are here that need to be identified? How can I write about it dispassionately. Was that the way the writing flowed out, and was that the way the retelling of your own story flowed out, that you have the arms length thing of the writer there.

Absolutely everything I wrote was very intuitive, and I think one of the ways that I deal with issues in my life and problems, whether it be a relationship or parenting or whatever it is, is I research the hell out of it. And it's something that I do talk about kind of intellectualizing in Groomed and how intellectualizing and really studying a topic can become a form of sort of self soothing, where you are just poking at something and poking and poking and poking and trying to look at it from different angles, because well, I think there's trying to understand it, and there's also if you do have disassociation, which I think anyone who's had any trauma will have some disassociation. It's a way of trying to break out of the numbness. I was hitting these walls in my own memory and my own sort of sort of emotional response.

Absolutely everything I wrote was very intuitive, and I think one of the ways that I deal with issues in my life and problems, whether it be a relationship or parenting or whatever it is, is I research the hell out of it. And it's something that I do talk about kind of intellectualizing in Groomed and how intellectualizing and really studying a topic can become a form of sort of self soothing, where you are just poking at something and poking and poking and poking and trying to look at it from different angles, because well, I think there's trying to understand it, and there's also if you do have disassociation, which I think anyone who's had any trauma will have some disassociation. It's a way of trying to break out of the numbness. I was hitting these walls in my own memory and my own sort of sort of emotional response.

I was kind of trying.

I was kind of trying.

To feel something and often it just wouldn't be there, or try and remember something, and it wouldn't be there, so I had to do something, so I would just start reading and researching.

To feel something and often it just wouldn't be there, or try and remember something, and it wouldn't be there, so I had to do something, so I would just start reading and researching.

That makes a lot of sense. I can see both the kind of support that that would give to the writing, but also the kind of comfort it would give that you don't have to feel everything that happens on the page. Sometimes you can think it through and.

That makes a lot of sense. I can see both the kind of support that that would give to the writing, but also the kind of comfort it would give that you don't have to feel everything that happens on the page. Sometimes you can think it through and.

Yeah, yeah, And I mean when I put them into the book, I didn't put them necessarily in like a glossary or oh, you'll need to understand this term. I was putting things in as I was learning about them, So I was it was the process of my discovery and learning that I thought, if this is relevant to me and my unpacking, then.

Yeah, yeah, And I mean when I put them into the book, I didn't put them necessarily in like a glossary or oh, you'll need to understand this term. I was putting things in as I was learning about them, So I was it was the process of my discovery and learning that I thought, if this is relevant to me and my unpacking, then.

It's a part of the story.

It's a part of the story.

A part of the story is me learning about these things and trying to fit them into my life and what they mean for me as I'm going through this process.

A part of the story is me learning about these things and trying to fit them into my life and what they mean for me as I'm going through this process.

So the crucial thing is off the back of having that conversation and therapy of suddenly starting to reassess your own experiences through this different lens and understand them differently at some point, and that understanding led to a desire or a need for action and a need to kind of for lack of a better word to socialize that experience in the legal system in a kind of search for repair.

So the crucial thing is off the back of having that conversation and therapy of suddenly starting to reassess your own experiences through this different lens and understand them differently at some point, and that understanding led to a desire or a need for action and a need to kind of for lack of a better word to socialize that experience in the legal system in a kind of search for repair.

Yes, well, it was probably about six or eight.

Yes, well, it was probably about six or eight.

Years between the therapy and contacting the police, and I think there were quite a few factors at play there. There was obviously the time that I sat with it and sort of got used to the idea of okay, so this is my new story. Now.

Years between the therapy and contacting the police, and I think there were quite a few factors at play there. There was obviously the time that I sat with it and sort of got used to the idea of okay, so this is my new story. Now.

There was the fact.

There was the fact.

That I was more aware of how trauma had played out in my life and had affected me, and I wasn't really seeing the shifts I would have liked to have seen. And you know, it can get really boring, you know, dealing with the the same problems and going why can't I move on Like this happened thirty five years ago. Why can't I just flick a switch and move on from it? So there was kind of getting sick of it and sick of the fact that nothing had shifted really for me. And then there was I've got three daughters, and my eldest daughter was fourteen at the time, and I was just finding myself among lots of other parents chatting about teenage parties and getting drunk and oh, it's all a lot of fun. Isn't it when the teenagers go out and get drunk. And I found myself getting really upset during those conversations, and I thought, Okay, clearly, I'm not comfortable with this next phase of my daughter's hitting teenage years. There's stuff that I need to work through. But then there was that year of Grace Tame, becoming Australian of the Year, Britney Higgins allegations, the Christian Porter allegations, and the March for Justice, and I think that was that was what tipped me over.

That I was more aware of how trauma had played out in my life and had affected me, and I wasn't really seeing the shifts I would have liked to have seen. And you know, it can get really boring, you know, dealing with the the same problems and going why can't I move on Like this happened thirty five years ago. Why can't I just flick a switch and move on from it? So there was kind of getting sick of it and sick of the fact that nothing had shifted really for me. And then there was I've got three daughters, and my eldest daughter was fourteen at the time, and I was just finding myself among lots of other parents chatting about teenage parties and getting drunk and oh, it's all a lot of fun. Isn't it when the teenagers go out and get drunk. And I found myself getting really upset during those conversations, and I thought, Okay, clearly, I'm not comfortable with this next phase of my daughter's hitting teenage years. There's stuff that I need to work through. But then there was that year of Grace Tame, becoming Australian of the Year, Britney Higgins allegations, the Christian Porter allegations, and the March for Justice, and I think that was that was what tipped me over.

And I didn't see it coming. The morning of the.

And I didn't see it coming. The morning of the.

March for Justice. It hadn't entered my mind to go to the police. But that night I couldn't sleep and I just stayed awake all night. And you know, I try and describe in the book what was going on for me that night, but it was almost like I just went into this kind of subliminal zone during the night and just unpacked a whole lot of stuff, and in the morning, you just thought it, right, I'm going to the police.

March for Justice. It hadn't entered my mind to go to the police. But that night I couldn't sleep and I just stayed awake all night. And you know, I try and describe in the book what was going on for me that night, but it was almost like I just went into this kind of subliminal zone during the night and just unpacked a whole lot of stuff, and in the morning, you just thought it, right, I'm going to the police.

I want to take this moment just to pause on the title of the book and Groomed and why the idea of grooming and being groomed is such an important central part of the way you want to tell this story.

I want to take this moment just to pause on the title of the book and Groomed and why the idea of grooming and being groomed is such an important central part of the way you want to tell this story.

As I write in the book, I don't actually really relate to the word, and that's one of the reasons why I chose the word, and I use it often. It's almost like brain training. And I do talk in the book how for me and for other survivors that I've spoken with, the word that comes up constantly is that they've been robbed or they've had something stolen, and that, for me, is a much more potent word and something that I relate to.

As I write in the book, I don't actually really relate to the word, and that's one of the reasons why I chose the word, and I use it often. It's almost like brain training. And I do talk in the book how for me and for other survivors that I've spoken with, the word that comes up constantly is that they've been robbed or they've had something stolen, and that, for me, is a much more potent word and something that I relate to.

The word groomed is not.

The word groomed is not.

Something that I really relate to because when I look back on the relationship, I recall being in love.

Something that I really relate to because when I look back on the relationship, I recall being in love.

The more I.

The more I.

Looked into what grooming is and what it does and how underhand it is, I just found it such a fascinating concept because you are being kind of almost convinced to be in love. And that's how perpetrators are so successful because they don't need to use violence or force. They can be pretty confident that you're not going to go and say anything because you come away thinking, well.

Looked into what grooming is and what it does and how underhand it is, I just found it such a fascinating concept because you are being kind of almost convinced to be in love. And that's how perpetrators are so successful because they don't need to use violence or force. They can be pretty confident that you're not going to go and say anything because you come away thinking, well.

I consented to that. So it's such a.

I consented to that. So it's such a.

Confounding thing to experience, and you know, I spend a lot of time in the book talking about the behavioral science, the neurobiology, what grooming actually is, and how it is very closely related to our need for attachment, our need to be cared for as a child. It's very similar to courtship. It's very similar to all these things which are really important, necessary, beautiful things in our lives. Hence why it's so seductive. It's all these great things except with this one little poisonous kind of element, which is it's done by an abuser, not a caring, loving equal.

Confounding thing to experience, and you know, I spend a lot of time in the book talking about the behavioral science, the neurobiology, what grooming actually is, and how it is very closely related to our need for attachment, our need to be cared for as a child. It's very similar to courtship. It's very similar to all these things which are really important, necessary, beautiful things in our lives. Hence why it's so seductive. It's all these great things except with this one little poisonous kind of element, which is it's done by an abuser, not a caring, loving equal.

It's kind of weaponizing those instincts against you as a kind of active manipulation.

It's kind of weaponizing those instincts against you as a kind of active manipulation.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And the other thing about it, which I think is so tied in with the kind of lasting trauma of it, is that it's a recasting of your reality. Your reality is distorted by your abuser. Then interests of being.

And the other thing about it, which I think is so tied in with the kind of lasting trauma of it, is that it's a recasting of your reality. Your reality is distorted by your abuser. Then interests of being.

Groomed, yes, yeah, and you're so vulnerable to that as a child, yeah, you know, because you can be groomed at any age. But hopefully as an adult you're more aware of power dynamics and you're not entering relationships with such a power deficit as you are as a child. Definitely, for me, I was a people pleaser, and I was pretty obedient, you know. And this is again one of the things that people don't talk about.

Groomed, yes, yeah, and you're so vulnerable to that as a child, yeah, you know, because you can be groomed at any age. But hopefully as an adult you're more aware of power dynamics and you're not entering relationships with such a power deficit as you are as a child. Definitely, for me, I was a people pleaser, and I was pretty obedient, you know. And this is again one of the things that people don't talk about.

With grooming.

With grooming.

You are there because you're getting good things. You know, are you're getting. There are a lot of advantages and benefits and pluses, you know, whether it's attention or you know, whether the person's giving you money or whatever they're doing that there's a payoff and you are really enjoying being there. But then there's also the abuse, which you have to then compartmentalize and sort of disassociate from. But yeah, it's a very clever manipulation and I still can't.

You are there because you're getting good things. You know, are you're getting. There are a lot of advantages and benefits and pluses, you know, whether it's attention or you know, whether the person's giving you money or whatever they're doing that there's a payoff and you are really enjoying being there. But then there's also the abuse, which you have to then compartmentalize and sort of disassociate from. But yeah, it's a very clever manipulation and I still can't.

Really relate to it.

Really relate to it.

I can only sort of relate to it in a theoretical kind of way. But I find it such a fascinating sort of dynamic.

I can only sort of relate to it in a theoretical kind of way. But I find it such a fascinating sort of dynamic.

You write really well about the desire to constantly pick up the scape of knowledge about this stuff that, even as the personal processing was it some of its hardest points, you couldn't resist reading everything you could find, the accounts, watching, listening to just absolutely mainlining any stories about kind of similar reviews. And I'm curious about the relationship between comfort in seeing the familiar and seeing the echoes and discomfort. Seeing elements of your own experience echoed in the stuff that you read help or was it jarring? Did it make it harder to carve out your own space?

You write really well about the desire to constantly pick up the scape of knowledge about this stuff that, even as the personal processing was it some of its hardest points, you couldn't resist reading everything you could find, the accounts, watching, listening to just absolutely mainlining any stories about kind of similar reviews. And I'm curious about the relationship between comfort in seeing the familiar and seeing the echoes and discomfort. Seeing elements of your own experience echoed in the stuff that you read help or was it jarring? Did it make it harder to carve out your own space?

It definitely helped, and it helped for quite a few reasons. I could feel enormous empathy for other survivors in a way that I couldn't for myself, and that helped me kind of, I think, grieve, because I could kind.

It definitely helped, and it helped for quite a few reasons. I could feel enormous empathy for other survivors in a way that I couldn't for myself, and that helped me kind of, I think, grieve, because I could kind.

Of a grieve for these other survivors.

Of a grieve for these other survivors.

It's so lonely grief, but then when you're around other people who are grieving, it can you can find incredible kind of company in the loneliness.

It's so lonely grief, but then when you're around other people who are grieving, it can you can find incredible kind of company in the loneliness.

And so I think.

And so I think.

There was a lovely feeling of community within this otherwise kind of harrowing space, and it helped me feel like not such a freak because people were describing exactly what I was feeling and doing, and I was just like, Okay, this is what I'm experiencing. Is these are normal responses or you know, I don't like using the word normal, but these are to be expected and not total outlies.

There was a lovely feeling of community within this otherwise kind of harrowing space, and it helped me feel like not such a freak because people were describing exactly what I was feeling and doing, and I was just like, Okay, this is what I'm experiencing. Is these are normal responses or you know, I don't like using the word normal, but these are to be expected and not total outlies.

When we returned, Sonya shares her grueling journey through the legal system and reveals why she didn't hide under the covers that they groomed, hit the shelves. We'll be right back. So there's another overlay that we haven't gotten to yet. If we begin with the stories that you tell yourself to cope and to be able to get through life, and then we have the layer of stories that come when confronting one's own experience and giving it a different name and dealing with it. But the third level is the legal system and the ways in which there are structures and pressures for how a story must be told. There that in some ways rob you again of the telling of your own story, and that's a kind of key part of how Groomed plays out. Your experience with the legal system was not a happy one.

When we returned, Sonya shares her grueling journey through the legal system and reveals why she didn't hide under the covers that they groomed, hit the shelves. We'll be right back. So there's another overlay that we haven't gotten to yet. If we begin with the stories that you tell yourself to cope and to be able to get through life, and then we have the layer of stories that come when confronting one's own experience and giving it a different name and dealing with it. But the third level is the legal system and the ways in which there are structures and pressures for how a story must be told. There that in some ways rob you again of the telling of your own story, and that's a kind of key part of how Groomed plays out. Your experience with the legal system was not a happy one.

No, I didn't enjoy it.

No, I didn't enjoy it.

No, I didn't enjoy reading it. I mean, it was beautifully written, but it was it was upsetting. You know, six to eight years between that therapy session and when you felt ready to go to the police, talk me through what it felt like to suddenly lose ownership of your own story again having just regained it.

No, I didn't enjoy reading it. I mean, it was beautifully written, but it was it was upsetting. You know, six to eight years between that therapy session and when you felt ready to go to the police, talk me through what it felt like to suddenly lose ownership of your own story again having just regained it.

Yeah, it's, uh, what's the best word for it, fucked? Yeah, it is. It's you're going.

Yeah, it's, uh, what's the best word for it, fucked? Yeah, it is. It's you're going.

Through the legal system, not because you know, you think you're going to have a great time in the legal system and you're not going to get any money or anything like that for you know, a criminal case. You're going because you've had power taken from you and you're trying to regain that power and to say, Okay, I'm in charge, I make the rules to do with my body and what things are okay and what things aren't okay. So you're trying to kind of gain control, and then you enter this system where the door is shut in your face. Once it hit the legal system, that's where I felt like I was just out in the cold, and there would be all these hearings that were being conducted that I wasn't allowed to be ash, and there would be the accused and his lawyers, and then the prosecution lawyers for the opp crown lawyers, and there would be a magistrate. So everyone was there except for me, the person who could actually explain what was going on, and they would have these hearings and I would be kind of frantically saying what happened in the hearings, and they'd be like, oh, well, it's just going to be you know, it's going to be another three months and we'll let you know if anything happens, and if we're hear any you know. So you were constantly, you know, constantly sort of knocking at doors trying to say, you know what's going on, and just let me in the room. Let me in the room with him, his lawyers, give me a lawyer, and we will bash this out in ten minutes. And I do describe this period of feeling like I was in a straight jacket because I was kind of in this battle mode, ready to go back to the scene of the crime and fight it out again. But I was just being told to, you know, just sit in the waiting room. We'll deal with it, leave it to us.

Through the legal system, not because you know, you think you're going to have a great time in the legal system and you're not going to get any money or anything like that for you know, a criminal case. You're going because you've had power taken from you and you're trying to regain that power and to say, Okay, I'm in charge, I make the rules to do with my body and what things are okay and what things aren't okay. So you're trying to kind of gain control, and then you enter this system where the door is shut in your face. Once it hit the legal system, that's where I felt like I was just out in the cold, and there would be all these hearings that were being conducted that I wasn't allowed to be ash, and there would be the accused and his lawyers, and then the prosecution lawyers for the opp crown lawyers, and there would be a magistrate. So everyone was there except for me, the person who could actually explain what was going on, and they would have these hearings and I would be kind of frantically saying what happened in the hearings, and they'd be like, oh, well, it's just going to be you know, it's going to be another three months and we'll let you know if anything happens, and if we're hear any you know. So you were constantly, you know, constantly sort of knocking at doors trying to say, you know what's going on, and just let me in the room. Let me in the room with him, his lawyers, give me a lawyer, and we will bash this out in ten minutes. And I do describe this period of feeling like I was in a straight jacket because I was kind of in this battle mode, ready to go back to the scene of the crime and fight it out again. But I was just being told to, you know, just sit in the waiting room. We'll deal with it, leave it to us.

Plus, you've been wildly retraumatized in the process of having to dredge it up and go into forensic detail over stuff that is hard enough to kind of tell the story of in broad terms let alone, Yep, expose yourself to.

Plus, you've been wildly retraumatized in the process of having to dredge it up and go into forensic detail over stuff that is hard enough to kind of tell the story of in broad terms let alone, Yep, expose yourself to.

That absolutely, and.

That absolutely, and.

You're going in with the knowledge that you are ninety five percent of the evidence. And so the entire job of the defense is to undermine you. Like if they can undermine you and they can kind of break you down, then they've won. So you realize very early on that truth is completely irrelevant, Like there doesn't seem at any point a time when people are trying to actually work out what happened, and people don't seem interested in what happened. It's just can they break you? Because if they can break you, then they're one. If they can't break you, then you win.

You're going in with the knowledge that you are ninety five percent of the evidence. And so the entire job of the defense is to undermine you. Like if they can undermine you and they can kind of break you down, then they've won. So you realize very early on that truth is completely irrelevant, Like there doesn't seem at any point a time when people are trying to actually work out what happened, and people don't seem interested in what happened. It's just can they break you? Because if they can break you, then they're one. If they can't break you, then you win.

So laying out these different versions of your story, personal, structural, legal, all of those a question. We come back to it again and again on read this. It seems is different writers feel differently about the cathartic potential of writing, about whether it's a thing that frees them from stuff they're working through or whether that's a bit of a false economy. I think we've come back again and again to the fact that writing is not therapy. Therapy is therapy and yep, worth doing alongside the writing. But one about for you, the experience of putting it down in a book and seeing that book in the world and having a launch, doing interviews, actually thinking about it as an artifact.

So laying out these different versions of your story, personal, structural, legal, all of those a question. We come back to it again and again on read this. It seems is different writers feel differently about the cathartic potential of writing, about whether it's a thing that frees them from stuff they're working through or whether that's a bit of a false economy. I think we've come back again and again to the fact that writing is not therapy. Therapy is therapy and yep, worth doing alongside the writing. But one about for you, the experience of putting it down in a book and seeing that book in the world and having a launch, doing interviews, actually thinking about it as an artifact.

Yep, how's that been.

Yep, how's that been.

I'll have to break it down into a few because there's the writing process and then there's the publishing process. The writing process, a lot of people said to me, it must have been really hard to write, and it was incredibly easy to write and even enjoyable to write. And I think that possibly a lot of it comes back to that sense of control that I didn't have in the legal system.

I'll have to break it down into a few because there's the writing process and then there's the publishing process. The writing process, a lot of people said to me, it must have been really hard to write, and it was incredibly easy to write and even enjoyable to write. And I think that possibly a lot of it comes back to that sense of control that I didn't have in the legal system.

But when you're the writer, you are you are God.

But when you're the writer, you are you are God.

When you are writing, you know, you decide what goes in and you decide how are you going to say this, So you become the protagon hot and you become, you know, the hero of the story, not that you know, necessarily a traditional hero, but you are the person who tells the story and tells it how you want to tell it. So I found that sense of being able to say what I wanted to say and be in control of my story really really helpful. The publishing side of things was terrifying, and you know, thankfully I had a very supportive team, my agent and my publisher, a firm press or very supportive. I have very supportive friends, my husband, my kids, so I had I had a great network around me. But it was still absolutely terrifying. And I did initially say that I wasn't going to have a launch because I just I just wanted to hide under the doner when the book came out, I was just so like, I just want to be in another country. I just I want to be here and look people in the eye who have read my book. But very quickly I started getting messages from people who had read it who were thanking me. And of my four books, it's been the most rewarding of all four books because of the gratitude from people saying, thank you, You've helped me make sense of my story. I've been sitting with this for thirty or forty years, and I now understand things better, and yeah, thank you for putting words to what I've gone through. So I get those messages every day. And I had been warned that I would get a lot of messages from readers and that it could be really triggering for me. It's been the opposite. It's made me feel very confident that what I've done in writing this book has been worthwhile.

When you are writing, you know, you decide what goes in and you decide how are you going to say this, So you become the protagon hot and you become, you know, the hero of the story, not that you know, necessarily a traditional hero, but you are the person who tells the story and tells it how you want to tell it. So I found that sense of being able to say what I wanted to say and be in control of my story really really helpful. The publishing side of things was terrifying, and you know, thankfully I had a very supportive team, my agent and my publisher, a firm press or very supportive. I have very supportive friends, my husband, my kids, so I had I had a great network around me. But it was still absolutely terrifying. And I did initially say that I wasn't going to have a launch because I just I just wanted to hide under the doner when the book came out, I was just so like, I just want to be in another country. I just I want to be here and look people in the eye who have read my book. But very quickly I started getting messages from people who had read it who were thanking me. And of my four books, it's been the most rewarding of all four books because of the gratitude from people saying, thank you, You've helped me make sense of my story. I've been sitting with this for thirty or forty years, and I now understand things better, and yeah, thank you for putting words to what I've gone through. So I get those messages every day. And I had been warned that I would get a lot of messages from readers and that it could be really triggering for me. It's been the opposite. It's made me feel very confident that what I've done in writing this book has been worthwhile.

I am a big fan of your earlier novels. Did want to ask do you look at those earlier novels now and see them differently? Do you see things that you were working through in them that you might not have identified at the time, or echoes and shadows that.

I am a big fan of your earlier novels. Did want to ask do you look at those earlier novels now and see them differently? Do you see things that you were working through in them that you might not have identified at the time, or echoes and shadows that.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Absolutely, absolutely.

All three of my earlier works have a theme of someone not understanding what's really going on. All of them have got sort of unreliable narrators that tell a story and it becomes, i think in all three stories, quite clear to the reader that the narrator is not seeing what's really going on. And I was halfway through writing my last book, Into the Fire, when I had the therapy session that's kind of uncovered this kind of different story of my past.

All three of my earlier works have a theme of someone not understanding what's really going on. All of them have got sort of unreliable narrators that tell a story and it becomes, i think in all three stories, quite clear to the reader that the narrator is not seeing what's really going on. And I was halfway through writing my last book, Into the Fire, when I had the therapy session that's kind of uncovered this kind of different story of my past.

And that was.

And that was.

The biggest aha moment for that book, because I suddenly realized what I was writing then and that I had kind of split myself into two characters who were the two females in that novel. One of them had one story and the other one had another story of their past. And the novel is these two stories kind of parallel, which one are you going to believe as a reader kind of thing, and all is revealed at the end. And I don't think I would have been able to finish that book had I not had that therapy session and that aha moment, because that was the novel that was I think the warm up for me writing this memoir.

The biggest aha moment for that book, because I suddenly realized what I was writing then and that I had kind of split myself into two characters who were the two females in that novel. One of them had one story and the other one had another story of their past. And the novel is these two stories kind of parallel, which one are you going to believe as a reader kind of thing, and all is revealed at the end. And I don't think I would have been able to finish that book had I not had that therapy session and that aha moment, because that was the novel that was I think the warm up for me writing this memoir.

I guess if the body keeps score, the body of work provides commentary or.

I guess if the body keeps score, the body of work provides commentary or.

Something absolutely and it's yeah, I mean I think I think a therapist would probably you know, there's probably a book therapist out there for writers who could look at someone's.

Something absolutely and it's yeah, I mean I think I think a therapist would probably you know, there's probably a book therapist out there for writers who could look at someone's.

Pott for moost sessions. Let me just read what you've written.

Pott for moost sessions. Let me just read what you've written.

And then yeah, exactly exactly where the gaps are.

And then yeah, exactly exactly where the gaps are.

And I do I do feel like, you know, I could just walk into a therapist's office and hand over my four books and just go, okay, start there.

And I do I do feel like, you know, I could just walk into a therapist's office and hand over my four books and just go, okay, start there.

That's very efficient a reading list. I'll see you when you're done.

That's very efficient a reading list. I'll see you when you're done.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

I like the idea of pre reading for therapy, and I have no doubt that Groomed will join the ranks of things that empower and strengthen and not just victim survivors, but anyone who's finding it hard to find words to share a story. I think you've done them and all of us are great service.

I like the idea of pre reading for therapy, and I have no doubt that Groomed will join the ranks of things that empower and strengthen and not just victim survivors, but anyone who's finding it hard to find words to share a story. I think you've done them and all of us are great service.

So thank you, thank you so much, Thank you.

So thank you, thank you so much, Thank you.

Sonja Orchard's new book, Groomed is available at all Good bookstores. Now.

Sonja Orchard's new book, Groomed is available at all Good bookstores. Now.

Thank you so much for listening to another special episode of Read This. If today's episode has raised issues or concerns, make sure you tap into your support systems or call one eight hundred, respect or other similar services in your local area. Don't try to manage it alone. We'll have another episode of Read This to share with you next Sunday.

Thank you so much for listening to another special episode of Read This. If today's episode has raised issues or concerns, make sure you tap into your support systems or call one eight hundred, respect or other similar services in your local area. Don't try to manage it alone. We'll have another episode of Read This to share with you next Sunday.

See then,

See then,