Welcome to Rolling Stones five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on Rolling stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversial list. I'm Britney Spanos and.

Welcome to Rolling Stones five hundred Greatest Songs, a podcast based on Rolling stones hugely popular, influential, and sometimes controversial list. I'm Britney Spanos and.

I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to shed light on the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great.

I'm Rob Sheffield. We're here to shed light on the greatest songs ever made and discover what makes them so great.

So we have a song that a song bite artist that Rob and I have many many hours of recorded conversations on, even more hours of unrecorded conversations on. And that is Taylor Swift and her song blank Space, which made the twenty twenty one list at number three hundred and fifty seven. It is one of two Taylor songs are on the list, the others All Too Well, which made it at number sixty nine. Robin, I figure that we've talked about all too Well more than any two people have spoken about All too Well. You can listen to Rolling Stone Music now if you want to hear more of us talking about All tu Well. We haven't talked enough about Blank Space, though. I feel like we've talked about it a bunch, but not.

So we have a song that a song bite artist that Rob and I have many many hours of recorded conversations on, even more hours of unrecorded conversations on. And that is Taylor Swift and her song blank Space, which made the twenty twenty one list at number three hundred and fifty seven. It is one of two Taylor songs are on the list, the others All Too Well, which made it at number sixty nine. Robin, I figure that we've talked about all too Well more than any two people have spoken about All too Well. You can listen to Rolling Stone Music now if you want to hear more of us talking about All tu Well. We haven't talked enough about Blank Space, though. I feel like we've talked about it a bunch, but not.

Enough, never enough.

Enough, never enough.

Yeah, this song is just totally inexhaustible.

Yeah, this song is just totally inexhaustible.

Yeah, And I mean even like just to wrap up All Too Well, quickly. Is the fact that it came out, that the list came out before the ten minute version even came out is pretty remarkable.

Yeah, And I mean even like just to wrap up All Too Well, quickly. Is the fact that it came out, that the list came out before the ten minute version even came out is pretty remarkable.

Absolutely, the list really needs an asterisk on it specifying that this is all pretty the ten minute all too well.

Absolutely, the list really needs an asterisk on it specifying that this is all pretty the ten minute all too well.

So. Flank Space is on Taylor Swift's twenty fourteen album nineteen eighty nine. This is Taylor's full pop moment. This is the album where she completely shakes off any of the country sound of her past. She started to do it a little bit with the Right. Of course, that was the first time that she worked with Max Martin and Shellback, and she had her first number one hit with we Rt Never Getting Back Together, So it was very promising already that people really loved pop Taylor, And of course with nineteenighty nine she brings in Max Martin and Shellback even more. She worked on nine of the sixteen songs. If you think about the deluxe editions of nineteeny nine, nine of the sixteen songs that she released during that era with Max Martin and Shellback, and of course blank Space is one of them. It's the second single from the album, and I mean, I think everyone was shocked when they first heard it. I think every Taylor fan. It's hard to shock a Taylor fan nowadays, but like we've just always that base level shocked. Yes, But like Blank Space, I think was the first time where people were really like, oh, this is like a brand new tailor.

So. Flank Space is on Taylor Swift's twenty fourteen album nineteen eighty nine. This is Taylor's full pop moment. This is the album where she completely shakes off any of the country sound of her past. She started to do it a little bit with the Right. Of course, that was the first time that she worked with Max Martin and Shellback, and she had her first number one hit with we Rt Never Getting Back Together, So it was very promising already that people really loved pop Taylor, And of course with nineteenighty nine she brings in Max Martin and Shellback even more. She worked on nine of the sixteen songs. If you think about the deluxe editions of nineteeny nine, nine of the sixteen songs that she released during that era with Max Martin and Shellback, and of course blank Space is one of them. It's the second single from the album, and I mean, I think everyone was shocked when they first heard it. I think every Taylor fan. It's hard to shock a Taylor fan nowadays, but like we've just always that base level shocked. Yes, But like Blank Space, I think was the first time where people were really like, oh, this is like a brand new tailor.

You could ask, is this one of the two big shocks of in terms of Taylor's long history of shocking people folklore obviously like such a huge shock, But nineteen eighty nine it was the complete opposite of what she should have been doing. It made no career since no commercial sense for her to be taking the red formula, which she could have milked forever and just throwing it out the window and doing something new.

You could ask, is this one of the two big shocks of in terms of Taylor's long history of shocking people folklore obviously like such a huge shock, But nineteen eighty nine it was the complete opposite of what she should have been doing. It made no career since no commercial sense for her to be taking the red formula, which she could have milked forever and just throwing it out the window and doing something new.

Yeah. I mean even with Redd the album, I mean, we both love that album so much, and so much of the joy of listening to it is that it is kind of all over the place. She's talked about it as her her Jackson Pollock album, where it's like meant to be a little bit of a mess and meant to be something that captures the messiness of breakup, captures the messiness of being in your early twenties, captures the messiness of her kind of figuring out the next step of who Taylor Swift is, just because there are so many of these country songs, but they also are kind of a little bit like heartland rock ish, where you know, kind of kind of moving a little bit away from the country that she was making before and those big pop songs of course, but nineteen nine it is like such a cohesive album, especially in comparison to to Red having a little bit of those multiple sides and multitudes to them. But nineteen nine is so cohesive. It's such a great sound. I mean, it's just like it's just a really perfect album. I've only grown to love more and more over the years.

Yeah. I mean even with Redd the album, I mean, we both love that album so much, and so much of the joy of listening to it is that it is kind of all over the place. She's talked about it as her her Jackson Pollock album, where it's like meant to be a little bit of a mess and meant to be something that captures the messiness of breakup, captures the messiness of being in your early twenties, captures the messiness of her kind of figuring out the next step of who Taylor Swift is, just because there are so many of these country songs, but they also are kind of a little bit like heartland rock ish, where you know, kind of kind of moving a little bit away from the country that she was making before and those big pop songs of course, but nineteen nine it is like such a cohesive album, especially in comparison to to Red having a little bit of those multiple sides and multitudes to them. But nineteen nine is so cohesive. It's such a great sound. I mean, it's just like it's just a really perfect album. I've only grown to love more and more over the years.

Absolutely, it's funny because now it's such a classic album, one of her most beloved, and yet because it's so beloved and canonical, it's easy to forget that at the time it seemed like total self sabotage. There's so much of the trademark Taylor sound she just totally ignores. There's no twanging on the album, the whole steel guitar thing she did. There's very little guitar at all in the first half of the album, especially Yeah, and what people thought of as the Tailor sound is a complete departure. The first single, shake It Off. Yeah, that was one of the songs that sort of cemented the tradition of the Taylor lead single, which is usually a total departure from the album. But blank Space, I think that's the one that we think of when we think of nineteen eighty nine.

Absolutely, it's funny because now it's such a classic album, one of her most beloved, and yet because it's so beloved and canonical, it's easy to forget that at the time it seemed like total self sabotage. There's so much of the trademark Taylor sound she just totally ignores. There's no twanging on the album, the whole steel guitar thing she did. There's very little guitar at all in the first half of the album, especially Yeah, and what people thought of as the Tailor sound is a complete departure. The first single, shake It Off. Yeah, that was one of the songs that sort of cemented the tradition of the Taylor lead single, which is usually a total departure from the album. But blank Space, I think that's the one that we think of when we think of nineteen eighty nine.

Right, Yeah, I mean that song is so specific about how it responds to a lot of criticism that Taylor had been getting, and I think a lot of unjust criticism that a lot of women, a lot of famous women tend to get, which is her dating seemingly a lot or the idea that she was dating for the content for the songs, that she was a man eater, that she she was playing the victim, whatever criticism people would throw and you know, again, thinking about it just in realistic terms, she is turning twenty five of the year that she really she's twenty three or twenty four when she's recording these songs. It's kind of insane to think about all of those things being wielded at someone who's in their early twenties and is famous and happens to just also be dating famous men, and that's just how life works. But this song sort of is her directly responding to the haters in a way that is even more kind of pointed than shaken office. Shake it Off's more of kind of a general kind of like this doesn't bother me, and playing space is her being very satirical about a lot of those comments that people have been wielding at her for years at that point.

Right, Yeah, I mean that song is so specific about how it responds to a lot of criticism that Taylor had been getting, and I think a lot of unjust criticism that a lot of women, a lot of famous women tend to get, which is her dating seemingly a lot or the idea that she was dating for the content for the songs, that she was a man eater, that she she was playing the victim, whatever criticism people would throw and you know, again, thinking about it just in realistic terms, she is turning twenty five of the year that she really she's twenty three or twenty four when she's recording these songs. It's kind of insane to think about all of those things being wielded at someone who's in their early twenties and is famous and happens to just also be dating famous men, and that's just how life works. But this song sort of is her directly responding to the haters in a way that is even more kind of pointed than shaken office. Shake it Off's more of kind of a general kind of like this doesn't bother me, and playing space is her being very satirical about a lot of those comments that people have been wielding at her for years at that point.

Yes, absolutely, And it's mind blowing to go back and read the kind of stuff that was written about her in the speak Now era, in the Red era, so many interviews with her where it's all about her boyfriends and nothing else. There's a really shocking Vanity Fair cover story around this time where it's almost entirely about her boyfriends, and at one point Taylor says, can we talk about something besides my boyfriends? Maybe talk about my songs? Like lots of young women have boyfriends, lots of young women do a lot of dating, only one of them is writing all these songs, making all these albums. She was the biggest star in music at the time, but to so much of the music world in the public at large, she was just seen as this boy crazy young girl who who wrote all her songs about her boyfriends. And for a lot of people, they would explain away her success by saying, oh, well, people just they like the celebrity aspect of what she does. I know it was exasperating for you at the time as a Taylor fan, definitely exasperating for me at the time as a Taylor fan, And yet this was her responding to it in a really, like you said, brilliantly satirical way.

Yes, absolutely, And it's mind blowing to go back and read the kind of stuff that was written about her in the speak Now era, in the Red era, so many interviews with her where it's all about her boyfriends and nothing else. There's a really shocking Vanity Fair cover story around this time where it's almost entirely about her boyfriends, and at one point Taylor says, can we talk about something besides my boyfriends? Maybe talk about my songs? Like lots of young women have boyfriends, lots of young women do a lot of dating, only one of them is writing all these songs, making all these albums. She was the biggest star in music at the time, but to so much of the music world in the public at large, she was just seen as this boy crazy young girl who who wrote all her songs about her boyfriends. And for a lot of people, they would explain away her success by saying, oh, well, people just they like the celebrity aspect of what she does. I know it was exasperating for you at the time as a Taylor fan, definitely exasperating for me at the time as a Taylor fan, And yet this was her responding to it in a really, like you said, brilliantly satirical way.

Yeah, I mean, and also kind of all the flack that she got for right now, so many breakup songs, I mean, it's not unusual thing in pop music. As we've talked about extensively, it's not an unusual thing for a songwriter to want to explore a breakup in their music and kind of the emotions because a breakup is can.

Yeah, I mean, and also kind of all the flack that she got for right now, so many breakup songs, I mean, it's not unusual thing in pop music. As we've talked about extensively, it's not an unusual thing for a songwriter to want to explore a breakup in their music and kind of the emotions because a breakup is can.

Be very inspirational.

Be very inspirational.

There's a lot of things that come, a lot of emotions that are unexpected that come from a breakup, and Taylor is very good at pinpointing those and finding those and really good at sort of finding like kind of weird nuanced threads and scenes that she's able to pull out of it.

There's a lot of things that come, a lot of emotions that are unexpected that come from a breakup, and Taylor is very good at pinpointing those and finding those and really good at sort of finding like kind of weird nuanced threads and scenes that she's able to pull out of it.

And I think within a lot of.

And I think within a lot of.

Nineteen y nine, so much of it is so fascinating lyrically and blank space in particular, where there's this kind of give and take in the relationship where she's not, oh, she's not acting perfectly, her partners are not acting perfectly. A little bit of playing with that and a lot of her songs, which I think is such a it's an almost subtle move that if you're not listening I guess closely to a lot of Taylor's music, it's kind of you're still going to assume it's a lot of breakup songs and all this stuff, but there's a lot of kind of fun ways that she twists what the idea of a breakup song can be, especially what the idea of Taylor swept breakup song can be.

Nineteen y nine, so much of it is so fascinating lyrically and blank space in particular, where there's this kind of give and take in the relationship where she's not, oh, she's not acting perfectly, her partners are not acting perfectly. A little bit of playing with that and a lot of her songs, which I think is such a it's an almost subtle move that if you're not listening I guess closely to a lot of Taylor's music, it's kind of you're still going to assume it's a lot of breakup songs and all this stuff, but there's a lot of kind of fun ways that she twists what the idea of a breakup song can be, especially what the idea of Taylor swept breakup song can be.

Totally. I love that she's always had that great sense of humor about herself from the very beginning. It's like at the time, people did not hear her clearly enough to hear that she was in on like those sorts of jokes, and she was the first one making them, and it's wild that also, just the people for a long time I think missed the pain in this song and the anger that now like people have come to sort of more appreciate those aspects of her songwriting, but a lot of pain a lot of anger in the vocal, especially.

Totally. I love that she's always had that great sense of humor about herself from the very beginning. It's like at the time, people did not hear her clearly enough to hear that she was in on like those sorts of jokes, and she was the first one making them, and it's wild that also, just the people for a long time I think missed the pain in this song and the anger that now like people have come to sort of more appreciate those aspects of her songwriting, but a lot of pain a lot of anger in the vocal, especially.

Yeah, Yeah, I think with Taylor and sort of the arc of her songwriting too is you are very much in real time witnessing a young woman sort of kind of shed a lot of the fantasy and illusion of what love is thinking about. Even just like her first three albums, self titled, Fearless and To Speak Now, all of those songs are so baked into the idea of a fairy tale romance, Like she's using fairy tale kind of lyrics and illusions in all of her songs through those three albums. Of course, we have like the Shakespeare reference and love story and a song like Enchanted where she turns this crush into this like big kind of you know, castle kind of meet and greet that she has with this like this guy for like five seconds, you know, And that's so much a big part of the way that she views love in the first three albums, and then by Ride it's completely that's you know, when she starts to get to real kind of very realist lyrics that she's doing and these like scenes and these kind of very like sort of like tortured kind of feelings and moments that she has in exchange like both with the person after the person's gone, and with nineteen eighty nine, it's kind of fun to see her take that to another level where she's able to kind of, you know, she has a song like Wow This Dreams, which kind of has that sort of almost larger than life kind of fairy tale essence to it, but still like the lyrics themselves have this very kind of directness and this very like you know, like I am now the fantasy for you, like you'll be dreaming of me.

Yeah, Yeah, I think with Taylor and sort of the arc of her songwriting too is you are very much in real time witnessing a young woman sort of kind of shed a lot of the fantasy and illusion of what love is thinking about. Even just like her first three albums, self titled, Fearless and To Speak Now, all of those songs are so baked into the idea of a fairy tale romance, Like she's using fairy tale kind of lyrics and illusions in all of her songs through those three albums. Of course, we have like the Shakespeare reference and love story and a song like Enchanted where she turns this crush into this like big kind of you know, castle kind of meet and greet that she has with this like this guy for like five seconds, you know, And that's so much a big part of the way that she views love in the first three albums, and then by Ride it's completely that's you know, when she starts to get to real kind of very realist lyrics that she's doing and these like scenes and these kind of very like sort of like tortured kind of feelings and moments that she has in exchange like both with the person after the person's gone, and with nineteen eighty nine, it's kind of fun to see her take that to another level where she's able to kind of, you know, she has a song like Wow This Dreams, which kind of has that sort of almost larger than life kind of fairy tale essence to it, but still like the lyrics themselves have this very kind of directness and this very like you know, like I am now the fantasy for you, like you'll be dreaming of me.

I love that. I love that, and that that wit really starting to take off at this phase of her songwriting. One of my all time favorite Taylor punchlines is in Holy Ground Yeah song I know you love as much as I do, And I never hear that song without laughing hysterically at the part where she's talking about how she's met this guy there. They're soulmates, they get each other, They've all these private jokes. They're so absolutely and sinc it's meant to be. And that was the first day. I just yep, that's the first day. She just goes from zero to sixty, and she definitely does that in Blank Space.

I love that. I love that, and that that wit really starting to take off at this phase of her songwriting. One of my all time favorite Taylor punchlines is in Holy Ground Yeah song I know you love as much as I do, And I never hear that song without laughing hysterically at the part where she's talking about how she's met this guy there. They're soulmates, they get each other, They've all these private jokes. They're so absolutely and sinc it's meant to be. And that was the first day. I just yep, that's the first day. She just goes from zero to sixty, and she definitely does that in Blank Space.

Yeah, I mean, I love the bridge on it where she says boys only want love of its torture. Don't say I didn't warn yet. It's very very much like the kind of like she's been through it and she's like, I told you, Yeah, did you listen to my previous four albums? Like have I not told you enough of out how this works? Like how this goes. It's such like a great great line. Also just I mean the way that that light is. It's so funny and it's so kind of like direct with a lot of that, but I mean just the vocal layering on it. I mean, there's so much newness to how Taylor's thinking about herself as an artist, thinking of how a song of hers can be produced, thinking about how her vocals can be on a song. That is such a big part of what makes nineteen nine work so well and sounds so great. Yeah, and still sounds so I mean, just like I mean, just ahead of its time and what we've heard from pop music since then.

Yeah, I mean, I love the bridge on it where she says boys only want love of its torture. Don't say I didn't warn yet. It's very very much like the kind of like she's been through it and she's like, I told you, Yeah, did you listen to my previous four albums? Like have I not told you enough of out how this works? Like how this goes. It's such like a great great line. Also just I mean the way that that light is. It's so funny and it's so kind of like direct with a lot of that, but I mean just the vocal layering on it. I mean, there's so much newness to how Taylor's thinking about herself as an artist, thinking of how a song of hers can be produced, thinking about how her vocals can be on a song. That is such a big part of what makes nineteen nine work so well and sounds so great. Yeah, and still sounds so I mean, just like I mean, just ahead of its time and what we've heard from pop music since then.

Yeah, totally. She talked a lot about being inspired by eighties pomp, and it was very much in that mode, you know, she she didn't go halfway. The whole album sounds so much like the first pet chop Boys album, Yeah, and first Erasure album. For much of hearing the album for the first time, I was I kept wondering, where are the ballads? Where are the guitar ballads? And I kept thinking of girls like my niece, who is like very young and who, like so many millions of girls, learned to play guitar because she loved Taylor so much. And I was thinking, what are all these fans going to think when they hear her completely throw that overboard and start over. And I guess I got my answer when my niece was texting me the morning that nineteen and I came out, and she said, this is the best album of all time. It's not just Taylor's best album. I think this was the first time that Taylor made a big challenge like that to her audience, and the rest of the world was shocked to find out that the Taylor audience really liked that challenge. Yeah, and they liked that she was always doing something different and they loved going along with it. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people who must have been wondering how this crazy move was going to go over, it was a shock that people loved hearing her do this. People loved hearing her have fun like this.

Yeah, totally. She talked a lot about being inspired by eighties pomp, and it was very much in that mode, you know, she she didn't go halfway. The whole album sounds so much like the first pet chop Boys album, Yeah, and first Erasure album. For much of hearing the album for the first time, I was I kept wondering, where are the ballads? Where are the guitar ballads? And I kept thinking of girls like my niece, who is like very young and who, like so many millions of girls, learned to play guitar because she loved Taylor so much. And I was thinking, what are all these fans going to think when they hear her completely throw that overboard and start over. And I guess I got my answer when my niece was texting me the morning that nineteen and I came out, and she said, this is the best album of all time. It's not just Taylor's best album. I think this was the first time that Taylor made a big challenge like that to her audience, and the rest of the world was shocked to find out that the Taylor audience really liked that challenge. Yeah, and they liked that she was always doing something different and they loved going along with it. Yeah. And I think for a lot of people who must have been wondering how this crazy move was going to go over, it was a shock that people loved hearing her do this. People loved hearing her have fun like this.

Yeah, I mean it was. I mean, just the amount of success and how successful it was, and how much of a cultural phenomenon this album in particular was at that moment is kind of surreal. And also it's so funny to think about in comparison to the moment that's happening right now, because that felt so big and all consuming, And we had spoken before before we started recording this episode of just like the fact that I found my year in Taylor Swift from twenty fifteen, and it literally is just about how massive and omnipresent she was in over the course of that year. And so it's so fascinating because this was the one of the last times that any artist was able. It was like her and Adele where sort of the final two artists to do the thing where they dropped the album but didn't have it on streaming, and like, obviously no one does that anymore. There are very few artists who were able to do that then anyway, But I mean, that was such a big moment because Taylor was sort of fighting against how little streaming pays and had taken all her music off of Spotify, and kept it off of Spotify for the first I think maybe month or a couple of weeks or something, and Adele did the same.

Yeah, I mean it was. I mean, just the amount of success and how successful it was, and how much of a cultural phenomenon this album in particular was at that moment is kind of surreal. And also it's so funny to think about in comparison to the moment that's happening right now, because that felt so big and all consuming, And we had spoken before before we started recording this episode of just like the fact that I found my year in Taylor Swift from twenty fifteen, and it literally is just about how massive and omnipresent she was in over the course of that year. And so it's so fascinating because this was the one of the last times that any artist was able. It was like her and Adele where sort of the final two artists to do the thing where they dropped the album but didn't have it on streaming, and like, obviously no one does that anymore. There are very few artists who were able to do that then anyway, But I mean, that was such a big moment because Taylor was sort of fighting against how little streaming pays and had taken all her music off of Spotify, and kept it off of Spotify for the first I think maybe month or a couple of weeks or something, and Adele did the same.

With twenty one twenty one.

With twenty one twenty one.

Yeah, so that's the last time that artists had been able to do that, and of course this was for someone like Taylor to be able to do that. This says a lot of fully note her fandom and the fact that the album is still able to be as big as it was and still is, but the fact that it was just the beginning of even more kind of wacky career decisions that like only Taylor Swift can get away with, and that leading up to a moment where you know, Blank Space can chart again because she's playing it on tour. But I mean even before she re released the re recorded version, people just were excited to hear it on tour and it brought back all those memories and made the song another big kind of chart moment for her. And next up we will be joined by Rolling Stone senior writer Brian Hyatt to talk even more about Taylor Swift Blank Space. Welcome back to five hundred Gray Songs, and we were talking with Rolling Stone senior writer Brian Hyatt and Brian, I know that you love Taylor as much as we do. What did you think of blank Space the first time you heard it? Is before we heard All of nineteen eighty nine? Of course, it was the second single from the album. What was your immediate reaction to it?

Yeah, so that's the last time that artists had been able to do that, and of course this was for someone like Taylor to be able to do that. This says a lot of fully note her fandom and the fact that the album is still able to be as big as it was and still is, but the fact that it was just the beginning of even more kind of wacky career decisions that like only Taylor Swift can get away with, and that leading up to a moment where you know, Blank Space can chart again because she's playing it on tour. But I mean even before she re released the re recorded version, people just were excited to hear it on tour and it brought back all those memories and made the song another big kind of chart moment for her. And next up we will be joined by Rolling Stone senior writer Brian Hyatt to talk even more about Taylor Swift Blank Space. Welcome back to five hundred Gray Songs, and we were talking with Rolling Stone senior writer Brian Hyatt and Brian, I know that you love Taylor as much as we do. What did you think of blank Space the first time you heard it? Is before we heard All of nineteen eighty nine? Of course, it was the second single from the album. What was your immediate reaction to it?

All of nineteen eighty nine is obviously kind of a huge leap for Tailor. She had hinted a little bit at some of this, maybe unread, but this was it was a blank slate that she started from that included Blank Space.

All of nineteen eighty nine is obviously kind of a huge leap for Tailor. She had hinted a little bit at some of this, maybe unread, but this was it was a blank slate that she started from that included Blank Space.

She wiped the board and was starting over.

She wiped the board and was starting over.

Sonically, Blank Space is probably the ultimate expression of that at the time because of how stripped down and radical.

Sonically, Blank Space is probably the ultimate expression of that at the time because of how stripped down and radical.

And minimalist and electronic it was.

And minimalist and electronic it was.

For an artist who's pretty much everything had been pretty organic and non minimalist up until then. Well, the artist I think about original wizes prints, you know, and something like when doves Cry, maybe kiss a little bit less, but when doves cry, you know, just that where the kind of the main instrument is a very carefully chosen drum machine and a very carefully chosen reverb on the snare, and then sure there's other things like a buzzing low synth and some synth chords, but the main idea is like basically like Tailor in this perfect drum machine, which is why for me, Taylor's version is one case where I can't quite hang yet with Taylor's version because the slight differences that they had to make in the snare sound, in the reverb like throw it off for me, because it's it's for me. It's all about that exact thing. I knew that she was gonna have a tough kind of rote a ho with with that, with that one, and yeah, that's one Tailor's version that doesn't like kill it for me, although it's a valiant effort, it's as close as you could get.

For an artist who's pretty much everything had been pretty organic and non minimalist up until then. Well, the artist I think about original wizes prints, you know, and something like when doves Cry, maybe kiss a little bit less, but when doves cry, you know, just that where the kind of the main instrument is a very carefully chosen drum machine and a very carefully chosen reverb on the snare, and then sure there's other things like a buzzing low synth and some synth chords, but the main idea is like basically like Tailor in this perfect drum machine, which is why for me, Taylor's version is one case where I can't quite hang yet with Taylor's version because the slight differences that they had to make in the snare sound, in the reverb like throw it off for me, because it's it's for me. It's all about that exact thing. I knew that she was gonna have a tough kind of rote a ho with with that, with that one, and yeah, that's one Tailor's version that doesn't like kill it for me, although it's a valiant effort, it's as close as you could get.

It had to be slightly different.

It had to be slightly different.

And this is a song where if you make it even slightly different, it's not right. And that that's sonically right. So then it's also the other thing is she always was self aware. It's a new kind of self awareness and a new level of irony and a new level of sort of like postmodern self reflexifity where she's taking in the media perception of her and twisting it and reacting to it and making art out of it. Is kind of a it's it's very pre reputation. In that way, it anticipates what she do with the reputation, and you know, of course she does it unshake it off as well, but this is kind of a more sophisticated way of doing it.

And this is a song where if you make it even slightly different, it's not right. And that that's sonically right. So then it's also the other thing is she always was self aware. It's a new kind of self awareness and a new level of irony and a new level of sort of like postmodern self reflexifity where she's taking in the media perception of her and twisting it and reacting to it and making art out of it. Is kind of a it's it's very pre reputation. In that way, it anticipates what she do with the reputation, and you know, of course she does it unshake it off as well, but this is kind of a more sophisticated way of doing it.

And you know, it's another thing where you could just her mind.

And you know, it's another thing where you could just her mind.

You can see a mind at work and everything in the sonics of it and in the you know, and like I said, in the lyrics, in the way that she's exaggerating this persona. And I think a lot of people didn't quite or at least some people didn't quite get what she was doing there. They took it way too literally, and they didn't understand that she's she's playing a character. She's mocking the character, she's exaggerating the character. The character is a version of her. She's pretending like she is the version of her from the tabloids.

You can see a mind at work and everything in the sonics of it and in the you know, and like I said, in the lyrics, in the way that she's exaggerating this persona. And I think a lot of people didn't quite or at least some people didn't quite get what she was doing there. They took it way too literally, and they didn't understand that she's she's playing a character. She's mocking the character, she's exaggerating the character. The character is a version of her. She's pretending like she is the version of her from the tabloids.

And then you know, and it's.

And then you know, and it's.

Just so much going on there. It's just you know, it's a brilliant song, and it's one of the songs where it's as much as you expected from the artist. Again, it kind of wipes the table and you're like, oh, I have to expect much more. It's just a you know, an amazing, ridiculously great song.

Just so much going on there. It's just you know, it's a brilliant song, and it's one of the songs where it's as much as you expected from the artist. Again, it kind of wipes the table and you're like, oh, I have to expect much more. It's just a you know, an amazing, ridiculously great song.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it always shocks me the people who thought that it was genuinely her like being very serious about it and being like, yes, I'm crazy. Like it's like it's very clearly like a funny, satirical song, and it's so wild to me that so many people didn't immediately read it as like this is very funny, very wacky to me that people took that too seriously.

Yeah, it always shocks me the people who thought that it was genuinely her like being very serious about it and being like, yes, I'm crazy. Like it's like it's very clearly like a funny, satirical song, and it's so wild to me that so many people didn't immediately read it as like this is very funny, very wacky to me that people took that too seriously.

Her careers is that people fail to notice her sense of humor and when it's clobbering you over the head, it's a really funny. But with this song especially, it's like, how exactly do you watch the video of your ass off? It's like, absolutely brilliant. I always it's funny. The video I always associate with when your.

Her careers is that people fail to notice her sense of humor and when it's clobbering you over the head, it's a really funny. But with this song especially, it's like, how exactly do you watch the video of your ass off? It's like, absolutely brilliant. I always it's funny. The video I always associate with when your.

Pinned tweet was like that still from the.

Pinned tweet was like that still from the.

Video where she's got the knife and she's slashing through the curtains. Loved her eyes. I love that you found that frame as like the like absolute peak of that video. Esthetic. Yeah, it's really one of the greatest videos of all time. It's definitely her greatest video. Yeah.

Video where she's got the knife and she's slashing through the curtains. Loved her eyes. I love that you found that frame as like the like absolute peak of that video. Esthetic. Yeah, it's really one of the greatest videos of all time. It's definitely her greatest video. Yeah.

I mean I've had a mixed relationship with her videos over the years, but that video definitely her best in my opinion, I think number one video for her because she just is having a lot of fun. Obviously lyrically, we just talked about like there's so much humor that she's finding in it. I mean, it's her funniest song, and it's like a song where she's able to really let loose and try something new for herself and have sort of like real anger towards the way that she's viewed and the kind of the scrutiny that her dating life has faced, as you know, that is frankly unfair.

I mean I've had a mixed relationship with her videos over the years, but that video definitely her best in my opinion, I think number one video for her because she just is having a lot of fun. Obviously lyrically, we just talked about like there's so much humor that she's finding in it. I mean, it's her funniest song, and it's like a song where she's able to really let loose and try something new for herself and have sort of like real anger towards the way that she's viewed and the kind of the scrutiny that her dating life has faced, as you know, that is frankly unfair.

The music, I mean, you could argue that the music is sort of more youthful.

The music, I mean, you could argue that the music is sort of more youthful.

Yeah, yeah, and then you know that her previous you know, on read she had all she had songs that kind of sound like you too, Like you know, it's like it's sort of like I was so much older.

Yeah, yeah, and then you know that her previous you know, on read she had all she had songs that kind of sound like you too, Like you know, it's like it's sort of like I was so much older.

Than kind of thing.

Than kind of thing.

So, yeah, like the themes are more adult, but the music is very light and youthful by the way that the other stuff wasn't always.

So, yeah, like the themes are more adult, but the music is very light and youthful by the way that the other stuff wasn't always.

It's such an inverse of like what a lot of others exactly.

It's such an inverse of like what a lot of others exactly.

Yeah, all proven formulas for how you graduate from being a teenaged pop star to a full fledged adult is you go away from the bouncy pop stuff and you start doing you know, serious stuff. Towards Michael going into his double era, it's like, I'm going to do a video where it's just me and an acoustic guitar, because that's how you prove your serious artist. We can see that pattern, you know, that's traditionally how artists they start out doing dancy pop stuff as teens, and then they prove their adults by let's say, dressing in flannel and growing a beard and putting out an album literally called Man of the Woods. But like that's traditionally the trajectory, Yeah, like marking your evolution as an artist. And it says so much about her confidence but also about her extremely widescreen sense of pop history that she knew all the tricks of how this has been done in the past, and she was going to do it the opposite way that she had this blockbuster formula with you know that was like very much focused around her acoustic guitar, and that she was going to cross over to dance pop from the more adult pop style. That's not how you do it. It seemed like absolute commercial self sabotage at the time. It's weird how this being so successful in retrospect nineteen eighty nine, but also the song blank Space. In retrospect it looks like a total non brainer move, where at the time it seemed like the absolute craziest thing she could do.

Yeah, all proven formulas for how you graduate from being a teenaged pop star to a full fledged adult is you go away from the bouncy pop stuff and you start doing you know, serious stuff. Towards Michael going into his double era, it's like, I'm going to do a video where it's just me and an acoustic guitar, because that's how you prove your serious artist. We can see that pattern, you know, that's traditionally how artists they start out doing dancy pop stuff as teens, and then they prove their adults by let's say, dressing in flannel and growing a beard and putting out an album literally called Man of the Woods. But like that's traditionally the trajectory, Yeah, like marking your evolution as an artist. And it says so much about her confidence but also about her extremely widescreen sense of pop history that she knew all the tricks of how this has been done in the past, and she was going to do it the opposite way that she had this blockbuster formula with you know that was like very much focused around her acoustic guitar, and that she was going to cross over to dance pop from the more adult pop style. That's not how you do it. It seemed like absolute commercial self sabotage at the time. It's weird how this being so successful in retrospect nineteen eighty nine, but also the song blank Space. In retrospect it looks like a total non brainer move, where at the time it seemed like the absolute craziest thing she could do.

When Jewel did it with three oh four, it was not as much of a success, you know, and then and that was it was the exactly good.

When Jewel did it with three oh four, it was not as much of a success, you know, and then and that was it was the exactly good.

It was the it was the exact move. I can't a perfect example.

It was the it was the exact move. I can't a perfect example.

Also, that should have been huge.

Also, that should have been huge.

It had some songs I really liked on it. I gave it.

It had some songs I really liked on it. I gave it.

Its always a band.

Its always a band.

Yeah, you know, it just shows that people had tried it and it didn't work.

Yeah, you know, it just shows that people had tried it and it didn't work.

I mean, again, great album I would love. I know she's doing she's doing the Exilent Guy Bill tour, but where's the anniversary tour for lis Fair self titled?

I mean, again, great album I would love. I know she's doing she's doing the Exilent Guy Bill tour, but where's the anniversary tour for lis Fair self titled?

But right that the two artists who come to mind, who tried it, at least commercially, did not succeed, So, you know, and.

But right that the two artists who come to mind, who tried it, at least commercially, did not succeed, So, you know, and.

I also were so reviled for us.

I also were so reviled for us.

There was so much anger towards both those artists for moving away from what was seen as much more kind of authentic music, kind of more authentic ways of doing their songwriting. I mean for Taylor to move into this mode to make a pop album as her kind of adult shifting album, but also to work with someone like Max Martin, who's, you know, such a big name in pop music, to kind of have that not only be someone who's kind of almost like a teacher, like her kind of own sort of makeshift college lessons of songwriting, where she has talked about kind of working with him on Red as a way to sort of learn a new way of writing and to learn more about being a pop songwriter, and then to bring him into that, and to bring also someone who was not known for working on pop music before, Jack Antonov, who had was this was his first big album as a songwriter and producer outside of Fun that he was working with someone else and kind of behind the scenes. But I mean to even have that balance of like someone like Jack who's a big part of the album and hadn't done this before, and.

There was so much anger towards both those artists for moving away from what was seen as much more kind of authentic music, kind of more authentic ways of doing their songwriting. I mean for Taylor to move into this mode to make a pop album as her kind of adult shifting album, but also to work with someone like Max Martin, who's, you know, such a big name in pop music, to kind of have that not only be someone who's kind of almost like a teacher, like her kind of own sort of makeshift college lessons of songwriting, where she has talked about kind of working with him on Red as a way to sort of learn a new way of writing and to learn more about being a pop songwriter, and then to bring him into that, and to bring also someone who was not known for working on pop music before, Jack Antonov, who had was this was his first big album as a songwriter and producer outside of Fun that he was working with someone else and kind of behind the scenes. But I mean to even have that balance of like someone like Jack who's a big part of the album and hadn't done this before, and.

With Max Martin, he's got like some brilliant production yes on nineteen eighty nine, and then he's got a there's where it's like, oh, he's still learning how to do this.

With Max Martin, he's got like some brilliant production yes on nineteen eighty nine, and then he's got a there's where it's like, oh, he's still learning how to do this.

It's really interesting the way that Taylor was allowed to sort of quiet quit country.

It's really interesting the way that Taylor was allowed to sort of quiet quit country.

It's really interesting. It's sort of uh.

It's really interesting. It's sort of uh.

I actually do remember asking her about that during I guess read and and she was just sort of like like more or less she was like, I'll be fun like like she just was like she had absolutely no concern about it. What you know as to whether you know, country fans will be mad about it at her.

I actually do remember asking her about that during I guess read and and she was just sort of like like more or less she was like, I'll be fun like like she just was like she had absolutely no concern about it. What you know as to whether you know, country fans will be mad about it at her.

Or or anything. She was like, she's like not worried about it. And she was totally right. It never really became a thing. Yeah, Nashville never got really mad at her. Nothing ever really happened.

Or or anything. She was like, she's like not worried about it. And she was totally right. It never really became a thing. Yeah, Nashville never got really mad at her. Nothing ever really happened.

It just sort of it's almost like she she she hypnotized people into forgetting that the country thing had ever been a thing, and it's just slowly it's like.

It just sort of it's almost like she she she hypnotized people into forgetting that the country thing had ever been a thing, and it's just slowly it's like.

Oh wait, weren't you a country or just some points he's like, don't worry about it, you know.

Oh wait, weren't you a country or just some points he's like, don't worry about it, you know.

It was like, yeah, I think it was a mixture of two. Like I mean, even with like love Story, she was already becoming such like a pop artist, yeah, and like it was a very gradual yeah, and like I mean, yeah, she had her first number one hit with we Are Never Getting Back Together and that kind of being it. But I also do think blank Space is such a country song and it's writing like that's the hook is like very Miranda Lambert, and it feels very like revenge country vibe to it, and I think, I mean, I feel that way about a lot of nineteen eighty nine, where I feel like a lot of the lyrics, not every song, but I feel like songs like style and blank Space and like all you had to do is stay is like they feel very country lyrically in terms of that, because she's always been so good at bridging what makes country songs so catchy and so fun and so sing alongable with a really excellent earwormy hook. Because I remember my the first time I heard the song was because I went to a I was writing about the videos. Is one of my very first like Rolling Stone articles was to write about the videos. I had to go to like a secret room to hear about the app that they were doing, the interactive app that they were getting launched with blank Space so so twenty fourteen, and that there was an interactive app that they that they were doing with it, and I remember just being so like genuinely blown away by how different it was, I mean, just in terms of the combination of the visuals and what she was singing, because I think that now she sort of she's done this sort of playfulness repeatedly in her music in her videos, but I mean, just to kind of fully see that on such a level from her from blank Space, like shake it Off almost got there, but like it was a little like that video was a little like disjointed in how it kind of tried to get there, and Blank Space her kind of going all the way through, like the running mascara and like the bloodcake and like all this stuff combined with those lyrics like you know, I'm a nightmare dressed as a day dream and the long list of X lovers and all that stuff. Like, I mean, just the fact that it's so completely over the top was such a major moment.

It was like, yeah, I think it was a mixture of two. Like I mean, even with like love Story, she was already becoming such like a pop artist, yeah, and like it was a very gradual yeah, and like I mean, yeah, she had her first number one hit with we Are Never Getting Back Together and that kind of being it. But I also do think blank Space is such a country song and it's writing like that's the hook is like very Miranda Lambert, and it feels very like revenge country vibe to it, and I think, I mean, I feel that way about a lot of nineteen eighty nine, where I feel like a lot of the lyrics, not every song, but I feel like songs like style and blank Space and like all you had to do is stay is like they feel very country lyrically in terms of that, because she's always been so good at bridging what makes country songs so catchy and so fun and so sing alongable with a really excellent earwormy hook. Because I remember my the first time I heard the song was because I went to a I was writing about the videos. Is one of my very first like Rolling Stone articles was to write about the videos. I had to go to like a secret room to hear about the app that they were doing, the interactive app that they were getting launched with blank Space so so twenty fourteen, and that there was an interactive app that they that they were doing with it, and I remember just being so like genuinely blown away by how different it was, I mean, just in terms of the combination of the visuals and what she was singing, because I think that now she sort of she's done this sort of playfulness repeatedly in her music in her videos, but I mean, just to kind of fully see that on such a level from her from blank Space, like shake it Off almost got there, but like it was a little like that video was a little like disjointed in how it kind of tried to get there, and Blank Space her kind of going all the way through, like the running mascara and like the bloodcake and like all this stuff combined with those lyrics like you know, I'm a nightmare dressed as a day dream and the long list of X lovers and all that stuff. Like, I mean, just the fact that it's so completely over the top was such a major moment.

I love that, Yeah, I love it.

I love that, Yeah, I love it.

She does it in Aerostour, Yeah, her and the dancers with their golf clubs like beating up the car. I was wow, Like it's very much still celebrating that spirit.

She does it in Aerostour, Yeah, her and the dancers with their golf clubs like beating up the car. I was wow, Like it's very much still celebrating that spirit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there was a resurgence over the summer with the song too. I mean, all the I mean every song that was an Aerostor had like a chart moment. But of course, like this crack top fifty where people we were getting back into blank space again.

And there was a resurgence over the summer with the song too. I mean, all the I mean every song that was an Aerostor had like a chart moment. But of course, like this crack top fifty where people we were getting back into blank space again.

It's kind of funny. Also, it's a song where every time I hear it anyway, I'm shocked at how short it is. Yeah, because there's so many brilliant details packed into it, and it's like wow, like classic Max Martin trick for sure, but like getting them in so so many of those in such a short period of time.

It's kind of funny. Also, it's a song where every time I hear it anyway, I'm shocked at how short it is. Yeah, because there's so many brilliant details packed into it, and it's like wow, like classic Max Martin trick for sure, but like getting them in so so many of those in such a short period of time.

Yeah, I mean a lot has changed in how people even are listening to her music. We have the re records out now, and we have you know, even more albums and the tour and all that. I feel like we could talk about this for much longer we have before. But I appreciate, appreciate you Brian for coming by and chatting today.

Yeah, I mean a lot has changed in how people even are listening to her music. We have the re records out now, and we have you know, even more albums and the tour and all that. I feel like we could talk about this for much longer we have before. But I appreciate, appreciate you Brian for coming by and chatting today.

Thank you so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia. Written and hosted by me, Rob Sheffield and Britney Spanos and with our genius guest today, mister Brian HyET. Executive produced by Jason alex Dale and Christian Horde and produced by Jesse Cannon with music supervision by Eric Seiler. Thanks

Thank you so much for listening to Rolling Stone's five hundred Greatest Songs. This podcast is brought to you by Rolling Stone and iHeartMedia. Written and hosted by me, Rob Sheffield and Britney Spanos and with our genius guest today, mister Brian HyET. Executive produced by Jason alex Dale and Christian Horde and produced by Jesse Cannon with music supervision by Eric Seiler. Thanks