360 with Katie WoolfIn the studio with us. Today we have got Minister Josh Burgoyne, he's the Minister for Lands Planning and Environment.
Good morning, morning Katy, Good morning to your.
Listeners, representing Alice Springs today Absolute and we've got Matt Cunningham from Sky News.
Good morning to you.
Matt, Morning Katie, and well, representing Catherine and the Opposition, we've got Selena Hubo, the leader of the Opposition.
Good morning Katie, Good morning to your listeners.
Now it's I say this every week, but this week has been an exceptionally busy week and throughout this week, well, certainly yesterday I sat to watch question Time and as question Time was about to begin, revelations that the IKAC had completed an investigation into allegations by well all the way back on the Colleen Gwynn situation. Now, anybody that's listened to the show throughout this week, you would have heard me speaking to Colleen on the show on Wednesday. She said she didn't feel that an inquiry was necess that the government would really would already have adequate information, and that she wanted an apology, ignowling that acknowledging that the government had got it all.
So wrong.
But what we now know is that there actually was an IKAC report. As I understand it, it was completed back in April twenty twenty four. It was launched in September twenty twenty three, but we only found out about it yesterday when Parliament was about to Question Time was about to get underway. Selena, why on earth wasn't this table by the former Labor government?
Yeah, Katie, I've read the report since it was tabled. I didn't see it. I didn't know about it prior to being in the former Labor government, and it was quite interesting. I wasn't sure why the CLPA government tabled it because there was basically a document saying that there shouldn't be a report. So I'm not sure. I don't understand the guise of it. I'd be very happy to hear from Josh and his team about why. Yeah, I don't understand that move by the government.
It's interesting, Katie, because we've had a lot of pressure put on us by the opposition saying about, you know, reports being made public it's in the public interest. So what happened after the calls earlier this week is that the Attorney General went to the Akak spoke about whether or not an investigation into the collenguin matter should occur, and the Aykak basically came back and said, well, there's already been one done and the Attorney General got her hands on it and then published it or made it public, tabled it in parliament as exactly what has been occurring and what the opposition have been calling on the government to do for the last two weeks. So I think three hundred and forty three days is a hell of a long time to be sitting on a report, and essentially as soon as our government was made aware of it, we've tabled that in parliament so that everyone can be made aware of its contents.
Well, look, I will say that this whole situation now over the last couple of weeks has obviously become even more topical due to those comparisons that are being drawn between the situation that had unfolded for col Angwin and also the situation of course that had unfolded for the former Police Commissioner now Michael Murphy. Now what we know is that col Angwin has issued now quite an extensive statement and in it she said the KAC investigation was insufficiently thorough, as the investigator relied solely on court documents and the information provided by the entities under scrutiny. No independent fact checking was conducted, no witnesses were interviewed, and no verification of affidavit claims, particularly those used to justify intrusive warrants, were undertaken. Rather than critically assessing the circumstances behind the charges, the investigator accepted the materials at face value and dismissed the matter without deeper inquiry. She said, despite clear gaps in the IKAK investigation or lack their of the conclusion was reached that no further action was required. Colin Gwynn says this raises serious concerns about the adequacy and impartiality of the review. Now right at the end and the statement goes on or we'll read it out in full after ten o'clock this morning, but she says, I am deeply disillusioned with the superficial manner in which my complaint to IKAK and others are investigated. There is no apparent effort to seek independent evidence and witnesses, or to verify the veracity of the information provided. Often the subject of the complaint They're very strong words from Colleen, you know, and I can understand why I'd be feeling pretty let down, and I think that she must be feeling pretty let down. I mean, it does really make you question. I know myself as a journalist, if I've got to complete an investigation into a store, well I've got to interview people, you know, So it's sort of it like to me, it raises questions as to have, Like I don't know what guidelines exactly the i CAAC are bound by, but I'm actually really quite surprised to hear that she wasn't even interviewed or spoken to as a result of that.
Well, everything the IQAQ does Katie in the Northern Territory since its inception back in twenty eighteen raises more questions about the ICAC, because if you think about it, we've had other investigations, arguably into less serious things, where people have been interrogated, brought into interview rooms, you know, had their phones taken off them, interrogated, had the information on their phones captured. We've had people secretly recorded, possibly unlawfully. You know, the IKAK has gone to extraordinary lengths in the way it's investigated some matters and some people and in this case, which appears to be that the allegations are series. In this case, it was a look at the papers and nothing to see here. So you know, that's one issue that you got to look at. And then I think that perhaps an even bigger issue is we now have a situation where this report was given to the government, the former government in April twenty twenty four, and it chose not to make it public. So we now have a situation where the body that was set up to restore integrity and government to improve transparency, it was all part of that big document that Labour put out before the twenty sixteen election, is now placing into the hands of the government. Whether a report, be it critical or otherwise, is made public. What other reports has the IKQ done that we don't know about? Good question, I mean, I don't know, I don't know, and you know, for all, what has it done an investigation into the charges laid against Zachary Roth caused so much controversy? Is there a report sitting there about that that hasn't been released by a government?
Do we know?
How do we know? And we also as journalists, who I mean, you know, I don't want to sound like a complete wanker, but by extension, the voice of the public can't get this information either, because I asked the IKAC questions on Tuesday after Leafnocchiaro was on your show saying that this was something the IKAC could investigate, and you know, blah blah blah. Yeah, And there had been a story in the Australian newspaper back in late twenty twenty three saying that the i CAAC was investigating the matter. So I asked the IKC on Tuesday, are you investigating? Have you investigated this? Has there been an investigation completed? What was the outcome? Blah blah blah, no, no comment. We don't talk about these things. So no one can get the information except the government of the day. And then it's on the government of the day if the IKAC doesn't put out a public statement, which clearly it doesn't always do, to dec whether that information gets released. How does that work?
And it's interesting because when usked yesterday and I read in the anti news Selena, I take on face value the fact that you said you weren't made aware of this, but the Attorney General at the time, who was Chancey Pake would have known about this, and that's my understanding as to how the process works. I think there's questions now about what he knew and why there was a decision made not to publish this report.
And look, my argument would be, can I just clarify something that Josh is an imputation there? Chancey has answered those questions too. As a former attorney general, he was not made aware. So none of my team in the Labor opposition knew about this general well that the IKAK sits under the Chief Minister of the day, so it would have been the former chief minister. I can't speak for one person.
One person holds the power in the Northern Territory about whether reports into corruption are made public.
That's that's what the process is that we've gotten.
Do you think that's working?
I think over the last couple of weeks, Katie, we've absolutely seen that there needs to be changed in reform with that legislation. I believe that that obviously the government is looking at that. I would like to see if they are, and we would be very happy to support that. Priest, do you.
Think it's adequate that it wasn't released? And I get you know, I get that on the face of it, you read that EYECAC report and.
You know, I don't really nothing. The new government has read that report that they tabled yesterday.
Well, either way, that's That's not the point I'm trying to make. The point that I'm trying to make is after you read that report, no matter what you think of it, you cannot deny that the Colleen Guin situation is one that was a matter of absolute public interest. You know, people following that case, and you know, and since speaking to Colleen and the impact that it has had on her life. I just find it astonishing that even she wasn't made aware that there was a report Like to me, that does not pass.
I'm not going to.
Say the pub test because I don't think that's strong enough. It doesn't actually pass. I don't think the public's expectations of what is, you know, what should happen. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but that's certainly how I feel.
Do you think I think that's the general feel of Territorians and the conversations that I've had Katie, I agree. I absolutely sympathize with Collein's situation. I think it's horrible what she's gone through and then to see that there has been processes that have found different findings for better or for worse, but to still feel and obviously matter Regio article and some of the following in a public position of anyone doesn't matter if it's a statutory position, an elected position, for you are a community member and if you are held in high regard, to have a process like this happen, and then to feel disempowered that the process hasn't happened correctly. For just like natural justice, that's huge, Especially in a small place like the Northern Territory. It has huge impact not just for an individual, for their family, for their friends, for their colleagues, for their supporters, and again it begs questions that territories want to know are these processes adequate?
I means, as somebody who is now the leader of the opposition that was part of the former government, do you apologize to Colleen for what has happened?
Katie? I don't think I'm the right person to apologize. I know I respect that an apology has to be sincere, genuine and create healing, and that i'd firmly believe that I'd like to understand where an appropriate apology could come from. Is it from you know, the police force, Is it from the DVP, Is it from you know, one of the former labor leaders, Like I would like to understand where a genuine and forward moving apology could happen. But again, that could be Well, what do you think that could be? I think it would be a question for Colleen, because I don't think you can ever move forward unless a genuine apology or process of healing has commenced, and I genuinely believe that.
Katie, do you think that report should have been released in April twenty twenty four when the former government.
Received Well, I mean, obviously the conversation. Now we can always talk about hindsight, but I'm not sure what it would have necessarily brought forward. You know, I've read the findings or you know, the conclusion. I should say there were no findings. There were no recommendations in that document tabled yesterday by Mary clam Boothby and Josh and his team. So in terms of where it moves something either forward or does it provide people with a peace of mind, then perhaps maybe it should have at the time.
Are either of you aware of any other KAC reports that have been completed in the past year or two.
Certainly not No, No, definitely not.
In terms of you know, this report. Look, I think it should have been made public, and there's a number of reasons that I've already sort of outlined why I think it should have been made public. But at the very least, I think that territorians have a right to know, you know, the process that does happen when it comes to some of these investingations. And I believe, like I said earlier, that a lot of Territorians will be surprised to hear that an investigation can be undertaken and the people involved are not questioned in any way.
To me, that makes me.
Wonder what needs to change or does there need to be changes within the IKAK Are they you know, are they simply just working within the framework and the legislation that they've got. Does that need to change so that things can be more thorough or are we literally in a situation in the Northern Territory where it's not working and we've got to outsource it.
And we've had so many conversations regards to this KDO over the last little while, as it's been very topical and I think the opposition leader today, Selena will will be ensuring that when we put changes, because we are working through how we can make the eye CAAC better, what we can do to ensure that corruption in the Northern Territory is weeded out. But I think what everyone can agree is that the current settings aren't satisfactory when we talk about the adequacy. As Collin Gwen spoke about early, integrity has been a word that's been a lot this week. People just want to know that their public officials are doing the right thing, and then when they're not, that something's happening in regards to that. And the way in which we ensure that there's integrity of all of us throughout our public offices is what we'll be.
Looking at going And Katie, I'd like to extend that, you know what Josh has just offered to be able to work in a bipartisan way, perhaps include the crossbenches as well, and make sure that the Northern Territory IKAK legislation is the best and for purpose for territorians and what they expect. I think it has to be genuine, it has think it has to come from both sides. So if there are proposals. I think a working I would suggest, and obviously it's up to your leader Josh to say yes or no, but a working group with all members of Parliament would be the best way forward because then it takes the political sting out of any decision. Any proposed amendments which we saw at the Territory Coordinator Bill just earlier this week, which all got voted down, even selp's own amendments from their committee members got voted down. But if we're talking about genuine bipartisanship in a process that affects all territories and meeting that high expectation that community has, like Josh said, of us as elected members and those who are you know, serving the public, then very much welcome that process and look forward to being a part of it.
And I think on the broader issue, there needs to be there needs to be confidence that people are treated equally and there are not different outcomes and different processes depending on who someone is.
And at the moment, any one who the Commissioner might be.
Exactly one hundred absolutely one percent. And at the moment we have a situation where I don't know about you, but I've heard a lot of stories in the last week or two from people who have gone for jobs in government and been overlooked and feel that the process wasn't fair and feel that there is possibly something fishy that's gone on, or that they applied for a job and then a process was apped for you know what they certainly in their mind set is questionable reasons. And so I think that, you know, I wonder how widespread there are. There have been issues within hiring within the public service and government departments, which is what has seen the termination of the Police Commissioner following an i CAAP report. But but then I still with the Colin Gwin case, I have to wonder why only one person has been the subject of a massive police investigation, a three year process, a Supreme Court trial that was eventually thrown out because you know, the judge made a decision that meant that the prosecution had to concede it didn't have enough evidence. And it's still I just I can't balance that up with you know, when you hear aunt all these other cases that are either HR matters or maybe they go to the IKAK, I don't understand why only one of them was a massive police investigation.
Well, look, we are going to talk a little bit more about the the recommendation or certainly on the recommendation of the Executive Council. The former Police Commissioner Michael Murphy's appointment being terminated. Will do that in just a couple of moments. You are listening to Mix one oh four nine's three sixty.
It is the week that was.
You are listening to the week that was in the studio this morning. We've got Selena Rubo, we have got Matt Cunningham and Josh Burgoyne. Now, as I keep saying, there's been a lot happened this week, and we know that we learned a little earlier in the week the former Police Commissioner Michael Murphy's appointment was terminated by the Administrator of the Northern Territory. Mister Murphy's entitlements and final pay going to be processed promptly. The terms and conditions of his appointment in twenty twenty three require payment of up to or of six month renuneration upon termination. Now we also know that the Ikak report, that report has been tabled as well, that was done on Tuesday morning and that full report Operation Apollo tabled in Parliament after the summary had revealed an unnamed person who later Michael Murphy obviously you know, came out and said that it was him. There's been a lot spoken about this week in terms of whether that report should have been made public more quickly. I mean, the opposition quite critical of the government for really not making that public any sooner. But in that line it does say that that you know, it is considered by the Police Minister as to whether this report ought to be tabled in the Legislative Assembly of the Northern Territory. I mean, could she have come out with it not in the parliament or did it have to be in the parliament.
Yeah, Katie, that's just why we've asked if the Chief Minister lived for Occhio, who's obviously also the Police Minister, could share that legal advice. There was a lot of toing and frying about what could and couldn't happen, And obviously we've already spoken about perhaps some of the improvements could that could be made to the Ikak legislation. But in terms of that particular recommendation and conclusion in the Operation Apollo tabling of the report at part on Tuesday, it does say it's up to the Police Minister what they do with that, and then obviously lif not then tabled it. There was a lot of public interest, there's a lot of pressure for her to do so, and then she finally did it on the Tuesday. But the advice that she was saying she couldn't release anything publicly, we haven't seen that advice. She hasn't shared that, so we don't know. We have to, you know, hopefully take it on face value. But that's the reason why she said she couldn't table anything. And then in the Commissioner's report we see that in fact, she could have shared it at her own discretion.
Look, I suppose I don't have to point out the fact that it now seems quite fascical given the fact that we've just spoken about the Eyekak reporting to Colin Angwin not being tabled at all.
But I suppose, Katie, this has led Operation Apollo has now led to the government asking the Commissioner to resign him, not resigning and now being sacked. So this is a very different report with the findings conclusions as obviously recommendations for Operation Apollo, which we're now privy to since the tabling and the public release of it on just Tuesday morning, So you know, you know, understanding the processes that we've talked about in general, but when we're talking about the reports themselves and the findings, this has led to a commissioner being sacked.
So I'm just trying to work out what part of this am I reading wrong? Because it says in the Eyekak Report it's left to the discretion of the Minister for Police as to whether she considers this report or to be tabled in the Legislative Assembly of the Northern Territory. Am I reading it wrong?
Look?
Does it have to be because every other report has been tabled, hasn't it?
No?
Well, the sorry Josh, but there's been inconsistencies around how this has happened. I think the first one I remember that was the Kesier Puric one and I remember Michael Gunner, who was the Chief Minister at the time, doing a press conference and releasing somehow in that way and then late because I don't think Parliament was sitting at the time, and a similar thing I think with the Turf Club report. So there have been but well there've been changes. There've been changes to the Act since as well, so I don't know. It's all over the shop. I still even with that advice and it's like yep, table and in Parliament, which she did on the first day. Whether she would have if there hadn't have been pressure from others and Justine Davis saying she was going to name him and everything else, I don't know. But I still have an issue that the power to release these things, because remember, until until it was tabled in Parliament by the Chief Minister, we'd only seen a public statement and an anonymized public statement about this issue. We hadn't seen the full report right until it was tabled in Parliament, and it just worries me that all of the power sits in the hands of one person who just also happens to be the most powerful person in the Northern Territory as to whether any of this information is made public or them.
It's a good point.
There's been a methodical process has been worked through in regards to all this, and I think it's led to at the first opportunity, the first day of Parliament sitting the tabling of that report, we can all throw rocks from the outside and say how we got there.
At the end of the year, you're on the inside, right.
The right outcome has been made. We haven't had to wait three hundred and forty three days for a report. This has been tabled, and I think when you're trying to you know, draw draw comparisons, I'm pretty sure the Children's Commissioner never went back to work after those reports were the public and the charges and all the rest of it. So you know, they're both matters of public interest. They're both matters in which.
Could the Chief Minister have spoken about this before the tabling on Tuesday?
And this is the whole process that we've gone.
About the actual report and release it which Matt's just given us.
When you're sitting in that could.
She have I'm asking you, you're a minister in government.
My understanding is that the first opportunity when we walked into Parliament she tabled that report, and that.
You haven't done the work or your team hasn't done that work to understand if she could have done that before because she said there was legal advice, so you would expect as a Minister of cabinet legal advice would have been spoken about, yes you can or no you can't.
What's important is it the process where we have got done. This is the important thing. So Lenny, you can't throw rocks from the outside when your own government start to report the thround.
Where releases of reports have happened before the parliamentary process. That's what we're talking about it and I think that.
Was done in the right way. You think your previous government handled what happened with Chalka in the appropriate way. They didn't. And that's where we've got.
To a point now a little bit of a topic which we're talking about information that is high interest for territories for the public being released or not released. I'm asking you, with the discussion that we've just had, does the information that well did the information the Chief Minister have legally say that she could not release information about that report prior to tabling it in the parliament because the parliamentary information that was tabled was saying it was up to her her discretion as the Police Minister, to be able to make that public through the tabling process. That's the question mark.
That's not the process as I understand it that needs to be followed. The process that needs to be followed was the one that was taken and it's the one where we're ensuring that we're trying to protect territories from the absolute mess that we've seen in the past.
Josh, do you think that the Chief Minister has handled this situation?
Well?
Absolutely, the Chief Minister one hundred percent has the backing of the entire cabinent, of all of our colleagues. And I think this is the thing. It's been a huge rollercoaster writers. We've gone through this about what we can say, what we can't say. And let's be really clear, neither yourself, Matt or Justine wanted to come out publicly and say this. I imagine out of fear of being sued. Well that's the reality. Well, I think everyone supposedly knew who this person was. I was sitting down out of springs. I had no idea. Apparently everyone in Darwin.
We were all seeking legal advice.
Right, Yeah, this is the thing. So I think it's very rich to say, Oh, I didn't want to say it because I was worried about being sued. Everyone's in that sube.
But Josh, I don't have I don't have the protection of parliamentary privilege. And at any stage after that report came out, the Chief Minister could have done what Justine Davis did and said I am going to name this person at them, I know who this is. I'm going to name this person in the next sitting of Parliament. There was there was a gap between step by and step by him out.
And when look at parliamentary privilege, and this is really important because when you go about we've seen in federal Parliament where people name certain people that have done things, you need to also give the person that natural justice that ability to have the reply, because I think in all of this there's a person at the other end of it all. So we've gone through a process to ensure that we're protecting territorians, that we're protecting government everyone. That's where we've got to. The report's been been tabled in Parliament and now everyone can read it and see for themselves and make the assertion if.
You've just said that a very important point around natural justice. So your Chief Minister, the Police Minister went from nothing to see here this is a learning tool. We will move on. This is a learning exercise to oh, hang on, we've got now the Police Commissioner announcing that it was actually him who was the subject of the report. To now we've asked the police commissioner to resign to actually now we're sacking him late night on a Saturday and now we're going to release it at you know, five to nine on a Saturday night. So you know, you're talking about affording natural justice. But even in that very very short time frame, there's been no process of natural justice from the outside. I'm not on the inside, so from the outside. So you also have to understand that's what territory are seeing. They're not seeing all of the nitty gritty inside like you will. Perhaps you said that you're not even included, but being able to understand what those processes are.
I think in a couple of weeks, in a long time in Parliament went from taking a long time to now it's happened really quickly. That's been a complete backfron, isn't.
It, to announcing the to announcing the informations.
I will say, go throughout this week there's actually from listeners, there's actually been quite a lot of support for the Chief Minister, people saying, you know, Katie, I'm glad she's gone through this thoroughly and I'm glad she's actually you know, made sure that she sought that legal advice so we don't wind up in a situation like we wound up with Jamie Chalker. That is like, that's a lot of the messages that we've received. So I know not everybody feels the same, but I actually it's been a long time that since I've seen that level of support for a Chief Minister after they've made a difficult decision. And again I will say, I know not everybody will agree with that, but that has definitely come through on the tech side this week, so I will I don't think it's over. I do think that there's going to continue to be you know, some wash up on that, but there is so much more to discuss this morning, so we're gonna have to take a very quick break. You are listening to Mix one O four nine's three sixty.
It is the week that was.
You are listening to the week that was. If you've just joined us, well, we've got Selena Rubo, we have got Matt Cunningham and Josh Burgoyne in the studio and we know the government this week past the Territory Coordinator Bill in Parliament. The Chief Minister Leofanocchiaro welcoming the passage of the bill, highlighting its significance in redefining the way business is done in the Northern Territory. She said that the bill strengthens the ability to deliver economic growth, attract investment, and streamline processes, also ensuring there are the right structures in place to drive significant economic development opportunities efficiently and with certainty. Now, I've got to tell how I was watching into the night on what night was it? Tuesday night? I got to about nine o'clock and I was like, I'm tapping out. I'm glad I tapped out when I did because I had to be up at four point thirty.
So we need to get you some hobbies.
I've got plenty of hobbies. But watch. But I will say that, like I always say on this, I watched Parliament, so my listeners don't have to right. But it was a there was I don't think i've maybe I'm wrong, but it felt like there were more amendments proposed to that bill than anything I've ever seen before.
I think Justine Davies had seventy six and I remember it was about ten thirty pm and she said, how long do you reckon? Make? You know? Another hour or so and I said, Justine, you've got seventy six amendments plus hours plus the Chief Minister and the government has some I said, we're only up to like thirty three or time like that out of one hundred and five Katie and I said, I reckon one O eight and poor Cat and Justine, obviously new members to Parlam both looked at me and they went no. And I said, oh, we're going past midnight for sure. I said, but my guest, I don't know why I picked one O eight. But they were kept looking and they go.
Oh, you're Gettinglena.
We just went over one thirty.
It certainly went well into the night and into the morning. Now I know that there were some protesting outside of Parliament House on that Tuesday morning. We're not getting a lot of opposition to the Territory Coordinator Bill to this show.
I know.
I'm sure that there are people who are concerned with some of the change to that legislation, but by and large, a lot of people are saying to me, I want to see things get moving in the Northern Territory. I want to see those major projects moving. I want it to know. I want businesses to be able to get on with doing business so that we can see the economy grow for our children, for the whole of the Northern Territory. Yes, people still have concerns around the environment, but I mean, do we already have the legislation in place and have we already got it right.
When it comes to the environment.
So important, Katie, in regards to this Territory Coordinator Bill, and it is literally in the name, it is to coordinate projects so they get off the ground. What we've seen after the last eight years of labor as we saw a range of major projects that fell over the Talassalt mine in our springs, we look at the Western Hotel down at the waterfront, a whole op of things that we didn't have someone really coordinating a response to ensure all these things got across the line that they had the necessary support. And the territory is a poorer for it. We need to rebuild our economy, as your listeners has been writing into you and saying, we need to get things happening in the territory because in my hometown of Ala Springs, people have been leaving. There's a whole range of reasons they've been doing that crime, all the rest of it but if they can make more money elsewhere, if they can have a better life elsewhere, they're going to move. And we want to ensure that the territory is the best place to live, work and invest. And that's what this is all about. It's about ensuring that we coordinate all of our efforts so we can make stuff happen in the territory, Okatie.
That's why our Labor opposition did our homework. We went out and talked to people, we read submissions. Obviously there was the Scrutiny Committee in the public hearings, and that's why we offered all of those constructive amendments. You know, none of ours got up. But interestingly, none of the Scrutiny Committee amendments, which have three seal members on one Labor, one cross bench, none of the committe well actually three two. Sorry, oh lie, I don't want to lie, I said two. Two of the eighteen, Yeah, I don't want to lie. People hate it when politicians lie, Katie. There were eighteen recommendations from the Scrutiny Committee, led by the CLP backbenches, and only two of those were adopted by the government. So I find it quite interesting when you know we were all working. We knew the bill was important for the territory and that was obviously the signature bill that the CLP government came to power within the election, so we wanted to make it the best possible bill possible. We've already talked already this morning, Katie about Aikak legislation needing improvements. We felt that the Territory Coordinator Bill could be improved. We wanted to be constructive. I always said, we're not going to be oppositioned just for opposition's sake. None of our amendments got up. None of Justin Davies' seventy six amendments got up. Two of the eighteen recommendations were adopted by the CLP government by the Chief Minness. So who's the lead obviously for that Territory Coordinator Bill, which is now an act or will soon be an act once it's signed off. So we did want to be constructive. But just in the last couple of weeks alone, Kate, I've met with some really big businesses here in the territory, industry leaders in some very important, you know, economic growth projects. I won't name them on the show, but most of them have said, oh look the Territory Coordinator Bill. You know, we don't have a problem with it because it actually doesn't even address the issues where we are finding the blockages, which are some of the laws that are Commonwealth and obviously the Territory Coordinator can't override anything that's Commonwealth law. So it's not actually going to help some of those big industry in major projects. And if it does help the smaller ones, then that's going to be great for the territory. We're very happy to support that, but some of the big projects which are going too we imposted in its form that it was voted through. We would have been very happy if some of our amendments were accepted, Matt. We would have been very happy to support that Territory Coordinator Bill. But there were two key areas. One was removing the Heritage Act of the Northern Territory out of the schedule. There's thirty two pieces of legislation that the Territory Coordinator can step in and out. And the other was local government. We've seen Local Government Association of the Northern Territory come out with a very strong statement Regional councils, municipal councils didn't want to see Local Government Act in and COLP had it in, they took it out and then they put it back in.
What are the Commonwealth laws that people are talking to you about that Some of.
The Commonwealth laws particularly it's around you know, land access, so obviously Native Title Average Land Rights Act, you know coming in under that.
So I think there needs to be some reform in that area.
I think that the industry knows where some of those blockages are and it's working with them. It's also making sure that we always have supportive members like we do with Mulander McCarthy, Marion Scrimdaw and Luke gosling around those Commonwealth laws in the territory.
One of the things I was really interested in over the last couple of weeks is I had Catherine Tilmouth on from the Minerals Council talking about, you know, the delays to projects or approvals. We've got mines that have been waiting for approval literally for years and years. But also you know, I was trying to wrap my head around why that approvals process under the former government ended up in the Department of Environment like you would have thought that Mining and Resources, like I would have thought they actually have their own area where they're really trying to get things moving quite quickly, and like I'm not even talking gas here, I'm talking like, you know, different rare earths, things that we used to obviously make batteries and you know, for solar panels and that kind of thing. I was actually quite surprised to hear that that change had happened. Whenever it did happen, and the impact that it's having.
Katie, there has been some positive stories in that sense when obviously the public services improving some of those processes, those processes that people get frustrated when they hear about it that industry talks about red tape and administrative burden. Tenant Creek Mining I spoke about this yesterday in Parliament. They went from twelvemonth process of being approved to now a very progressed in the construction of the physical site. I did a site visit there a couple of weeks ago when I was down in TenneT Kreeg. And that's a new gold mine. So that's going to create a whole amount of opportunities for jobs for the circular economy, for the territory economy around that new mind being established. But a twelve month process, and I don't think we've seen that in the previous years. So that's a good story for the territory to have those processes then be streamlined. And perhaps now we'll see more of that than the Territory Coordinator. But that was the work of the public service.
Well, it's interesting because I think a lot of people have the view that the public service is slowing things down too much rather than fast tracking them. The Darwin Major Business Group's got an event today. It's just put out a report that has just been made public today that it's talking about, and it talks about a couple of really interesting things. And one it talks about is our debt right which is tracking towards fifteen billion dollars and has been. And that's a problem that's been created largely by the size of our public service. If you go back and look at the Territory government's own reporting to Budget Repair from twenty nineteen, you'll see that from nine to eighty three to about two thousand and two two thousand and three, the public service remained steady at between fourteen and fifteen thousand people. As of the last State of the State's report, So twenty years on from two thousand and well twenty three years on from then, we're now looking at almost twenty three thousand full time equivalent employees in the public service, and you have to wonder whether they are making life easier or making life harder for people trying to do business here. And if it is the latter, I think that is what needs to change. And I think that's what the Territory Coordinator Bill is all about, right, And if it wasn't for that inertia within the bureaucracy, you know, people wouldn't have voted in spades for the Territory Coordinator. And I also I also find it a little bit funny that there's this argument that somehow the Territory Coordinator is undemocratic. That's one of the arguments against that. There's been put out there, that this is an assault on democracy. Well, the COLP took this policy to the election last year, and they.
Took it to the last one as well.
They the one.
Before they may well have done. They certainly took it. They certainly took it to the election in twenty four It was no secret they won an absolute landslide victory. They won seventeen of the twenty five seats in the Assembly, right, and then they're enacting what they said they were going to do. It is the very essence of democracy.
What is happening an interesting process, and if.
The people who are protesting want to change it, all they have to do is find enough people who oppose it to them win thirteen seats in the Legislative Assembly and then through a democratic process, take it over town.
I feel like it's been the most consultant on bill that we've gone through. I actually pulled up my speech from March twenty twenty one when we last spoke about the Territory Coordinator Bill, and as an opposition we tried to move it through Parliament. There's been a huge It's gone through scrutiny committee, which we've brought back.
But then you didn't adopt all of the recommendations which members.
Which which again as a government, we don't have to adopt all those recommendation. There's been a process, has been a process that we went through. Yeah, exactly. Been struggling to get a word in this morning, Katie.
I got to be quick.
There's been this bill has been consulted on further than any other piece of legislation I can remember over the last four or five years. So this is what we've taken. As Matt said to the people, we've now passed it through. We want to see development when we want to rebuild the economy, and my department in Lands and Planning are working to ensure that we work through the backlog. I got the figures the other day. There was something like one hundred and twenty approvals that were outstanding when all these changes happened. And since we've come in the government, we've been working through that. I think sixty have now been worked through. So you know, I've been saying to my department, we need to make sure that we're moving heaven and earth to ensure that we're doing all the right things, having all the protections in place, but we're giving people a definite yes or no because that's what people need for business.
You're going to remove some of those protections, aren't you, Josh, we are come on, we are going.
To have to take a quick break. You are listening to Mix one OW four nine's three sixty. It is the week that was. You are listening to the week that was, And it has been a busy morning. It's been a busy week and we know that the government have announced it they're going to be taking action on anti social behavior to claw back thirty nine million dollars in renterrears by introducing public housing reform this week. So a number of changes set to come into play, including strengthening policy to fast track pathways to a viction, a full review of visitor management, tennessee tenancy management and red card policy, Debt management policy reform are a view of the Housing Act and making recommendations to the Attorney General's Office for the Residential Tenancies Act to also align with community expectations. I got so many messages about this yesterday on the show. People are like Wolfie, I live next door to, you know, to a public housing tenant who X, y Z. You know, like people saying they've seen some real issues over the years, and it's one of those things I think that you know, you can have a beautiful family living in a public housing tendancy in your street, then for whatever reason, someone you know, they move out, or visitors come to town or whatever happens, and all of a sudden it turns into a bit of a nightmare for people. Depending on the situation, that is unfolding now. I will say many years ago I worked for the Housing Minister, Rob Knight, many many years ago, and it's not an easy portfolio to manage, there is no doubt about it.
That scarred from ash.
You know, people like obviously there are people that need public housing and I would never dispute that, but I've got a real issue with people they're not treating their public housing in an appropriate manner and wreaking havoc on those around them.
And as local members, this is definitely the number one thing that comes to us in regards to any social behavior, in regards to the yards not being looked after, rubbish being left everywhere. It's really good to see the Housing Minister, Steve Edgington making this a priority. Since coming to government, I've seen a lot of change in this area. There's still a lot more that needs to occur, just making this a priority once again. We know that there's a huge waiting list. We know there's people on those waiting lists that really need housing. So we need to ensure that if people are in there that aren't looking after the homes, that aren't doing the right thing. How can we ensure that people that are going to do the right thing and not destroy the neighborhood and not create any social behavior for everyone. How we can ensure that we can get those people in those homes look after the places. Ollie Carlson she every time she speaks in Parliament she brings a tea. Tomorrow. She spoke about her family coming here literally as new migrants, getting public housing. They looked after their place. They did everything right. And probably one of the greatest things that I've been able to achieve through my short career in politics was actually working with a local constituent to be able to buy her public housing property and take ownership of it. It was a great process. It was a long process, Katie, I can tell you it wasn't easy. But to be able to see that she's now paying off her own mortgage rather than paying rent every week, that's what we should be working towards. Not enough of that happens.
And the people I feel most sorry for, to your point, Josh, is that the people who do the right thing. So I live not far from a public housing block in Nightcliffe, that the new one next to the Nightcliff police station, and I've been down there and had some conversations with people down there, and the people who are the people who are most affected and most upset by the unruly behavior of public housing tenants are fellow public housing tenants who are doing the right thing, but doing yeah, who just want to live in peace and are unable to do so because of the reckless and unruly behavior of others. That I was down there a few weeks ago and someone had gone through and smashed every windscreen in the car park below that public housing unit block. And so then you've got people who you know, up from the lowest socioeconomic backgrounds, right who you need a car to get to work, you know, and then all of a sudden they wake up in the morning and their windscreen's been smashed, and they're like, wow, my whole day stuff. I'm not going to be able to work today. They're probably a casual employee, they don't get paid suddenly, you know, and that just puts me more trouble. And if you don't crack down on the people doing the wrong thing, you know, it affects the people. And there are more people doing the right thing, it affects those ones. The thing I've found most extraordinary about they released it came out yesterday was there was one case where there was there was a public housing tenants who'd had sixty two red cards and they've been moved from one house and just putting into another. And since they've been put in the other one, there'd been one hundred and fifty eight or something, you know, reports of anti social behavior. I mean, what's the number where you say enough's enough? It's clearly more than one hundred and fifty eight.
You would certainly think so, wouldn't you.
And Kanie is a former housing minister obviously understand all the challenges that are presented when it comes to public housing, whether it's in an urban area or a remote area. You know, I'm interested to see what else the government's going to do in the housing space because I think that you know, if we're talking about antisocial behavior, is this just kicking the can down the road? Are we just looking and to see what the process that the CLP is going to undertake. Are they just going to move antisocial behavior from houses to the streets. What is that going to do? Is it going to double the cost for territories When it comes to police responses, when it comes to our justice system, if we're talking about antisocial behavior, what is the CLP government doing about the actual behavior? Not just removing people from houses? Where are those people going to go? Obviously there's probably not a care from the government where they go. But I believe that they're going to go to the streets, to our businesses, to our shopping centers, and that antisocial behavior is going to continue there, and what is the government going to do about that?
It is certainly something I asked Steve Edgington yesterday, the Housing Minister. I mean, Josh, like, that's the tough part of this is as much as people are doing the wrong thing and do not deserve then if they're being you know, like if you've got one hundred and fifty eight complaints against you, but where do they go? Like that's and you know, I kind of look at it and go, how are we not managing these tendencies better or differently? First off, to make sure we're not getting into the rental areas that we're seeing in some of these situations. But you know, I like to try and stop it before it gets to that point.
And I think this is the issue that I see in my own electorate all the time is that a house will be destroyed to such a point that it can no longer be lived in. So when you talk about how we going to find houses for everyone, we need to ensure that the housing stock we have is being looked after so people can actually be in it then repair and or if it's no longer repaarable beyond economic repair, we need to look at how we deal with those current housing properties because we need to get more stock in the market. It's certainly things that we're looking at. I remember back when I was a sparky, we used to work with people in the correction system to try to get these houses back online. A lot of that's dropped away, and we're now looking at how we can essentially get more stock in the market and more people in the race.
Can I just ask Selena, as a forming former housing minister, how did we reach a point where it was like seventy one million dollars I think in rental areas that got wiped We're now back at thirty nine million dollars in rental areas. Like, is there not some kind of process in place? Or can it there not be? Or you know, like you told me, how is it managed? If someone's in rental areas.
Yeah, there is a process in place, and there's sort of two issues when we talk about this. Obviously the dollar figure the money. If someone is falling behind in the rent or just not paying, what is the intensive case management that is being worked with that person to get them back on track, to get them paying properly and to then obviously pay off some of that debt. So that's one issue there. The other one is if it is related to antisocial behavior, what is the intensive case management there. There was a program that was worked on formerly under the Labor government which was around the response for public housing and support, but particularly an urban focus. I'll give you the example of this, which was Housing Officers, Territory families or now what would it be DCF children Families, territory families, Housing and police all info sharing because often we found when there were reports made to police about anti social behavior in urban public housing, then so I've just got distracted by the giant monopoly menods walking outside.
Yes, sorry, something happening at this radio session.
If there was police reports, and sometimes multiple police reports, that was not necessarily transferred across to housing unless there was a separate report made to the House departments. So that info sharing the left arm and the right not knowing what they're doing is completely frustrating for territorial So how do you make that government process better? But then going back to the issue Katie, anti social behavior, if it's being kicked out of a house, where does it go and how we're going to deal with thatch?
Do people deserve to keep that house if they're not making the right thing?
Katie, absolutely not. But then why they're not doing the right thing. If they've been given a chance to do the right thing and they still haven't rectified either that behavior or the rental arrears, then obviously the government is going to go through a more punity approach and a victim that's you know, that's the prerogative there, The processes are there, and I absolutely acknowledge that. But where does that behavior then go, Katie, to our streets and it's going to cost the dollars to taxpayers and territorial. Look, we are going to have to wrap up.
I've got so many messages coming through. I'll get to those shortly, but that is it for us this morning. Josh Burgwyne, the Minister for various portfolios, including lands and planning. Good to have you in the studio this morning.
Thank you.
Yeah, thanks Katie to I want to shout out it's well down syndrome day to day, so if you wear odd socks or crazy socks, it points out that we are more alike than different.
Oh that's a good one. I wish i'd have realized I would have worn some crazy socks. Matt Cunningham from Sky News, Thank you so much for your time this morning. Thanks Selena Yuvo, the Opposition leader. Thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you for having me Katie. Much more fun being in the studio than being on the lining from cat somebody is well. Thank you to cut you off. Good on you all. Thanks so much for your time.
