Now a concerning report in the Northern terret Train News on the weekend about victims of crime, defendants and witnesses falling through the cracks of an overwhelmed court system, as in custody numbers in Darwin's spike by two hundred and fifty percent now. According to data obtained by the Northern Tiret Train News, the Darwin local courts in custody numbers on the first day of each week has dramatically increased over the past seven months. According to the report, on the sixteenth of June, there were forty nine people on the in custody list compared to fourteen the fourteen in the cells on the first Monday of December last year. Now joining us in the studio is bethwhile the President of the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory. Good morning, Beth, minding Katie, thanks so much for your time this morning now, Beth. According to the paper on June sixteen, as I touched on, there were forty nine people on the in custody list compared to fourteen people in the cells on the first Monday of Decement last year. What kind of impact are these numbers having? On the system from your perspective.

Now a concerning report in the Northern terret Train News on the weekend about victims of crime, defendants and witnesses falling through the cracks of an overwhelmed court system, as in custody numbers in Darwin's spike by two hundred and fifty percent now. According to data obtained by the Northern Tiret Train News, the Darwin local courts in custody numbers on the first day of each week has dramatically increased over the past seven months. According to the report, on the sixteenth of June, there were forty nine people on the in custody list compared to fourteen the fourteen in the cells on the first Monday of December last year. Now joining us in the studio is bethwhile the President of the Criminal Lawyers Association of the Northern Territory. Good morning, Beth, minding Katie, thanks so much for your time this morning now, Beth. According to the paper on June sixteen, as I touched on, there were forty nine people on the in custody list compared to fourteen people in the cells on the first Monday of Decement last year. What kind of impact are these numbers having? On the system from your perspective.

So, Katie, what I've seen down at the courts, and I was there two weeks ago when we were having these huge numbers through, we're seeing a delay in matters getting reached in court of the night. Every of the forty nine people needs all their paperwork to be read by a lawyer that them will go in and see their client. That can take all morning to sort out. We're even seeing just basic things like a queue of lawyers waiting to see that the prisoners that are in the cells because there's only four holding cells, so we're having to wait to see our clients. That means that we're not ready to go before lunchtime, and then after lunch everybody's ready to go, and then matters aren't reached and they're then adjourned to the next day or the day after, and just the can keeps getting kicked down the road. So we're not seeing outcomes and the system certainly overwhelmed.

So, Katie, what I've seen down at the courts, and I was there two weeks ago when we were having these huge numbers through, we're seeing a delay in matters getting reached in court of the night. Every of the forty nine people needs all their paperwork to be read by a lawyer that them will go in and see their client. That can take all morning to sort out. We're even seeing just basic things like a queue of lawyers waiting to see that the prisoners that are in the cells because there's only four holding cells, so we're having to wait to see our clients. That means that we're not ready to go before lunchtime, and then after lunch everybody's ready to go, and then matters aren't reached and they're then adjourned to the next day or the day after, and just the can keeps getting kicked down the road. So we're not seeing outcomes and the system certainly overwhelmed.

How significantly have those numbers grown in recent months?

How significantly have those numbers grown in recent months?

Well, those statistics that you just read out are accurate and frightening, So something like two hundred and fifty percent in spike that we're seeing and it's a natural consequence of a series of decisions that have been taken by various players. One is that the court, the judges stopped doing their own call bail applications over the weekends and overnight. That means that no one would be getting bailed from the station, so everybody's getting brought before the court. We've also had the Attorney General confirm that she's directed police to arrest more people, So we're seeing that those decisions on the ground as to whether or not somebody might be warned or bailed or charged by way of summons, which used to be the presumption, those people are instead being arrested and brought before the courts. So all of those things together, as well as the new Bayer laws, have meant that we're seeing this spark.

Well, those statistics that you just read out are accurate and frightening, So something like two hundred and fifty percent in spike that we're seeing and it's a natural consequence of a series of decisions that have been taken by various players. One is that the court, the judges stopped doing their own call bail applications over the weekends and overnight. That means that no one would be getting bailed from the station, so everybody's getting brought before the court. We've also had the Attorney General confirm that she's directed police to arrest more people, So we're seeing that those decisions on the ground as to whether or not somebody might be warned or bailed or charged by way of summons, which used to be the presumption, those people are instead being arrested and brought before the courts. So all of those things together, as well as the new Bayer laws, have meant that we're seeing this spark.

So really it is a lot of it is as a result of those legislative changes. Yes, now, can you give me some examples of what the situation means on a day to day basis. I mean you touched on it just before when you talked about lawyers sort of not being able to see the people that they need to go in and see. But talk us through what it means on that day to day basis, it.

So really it is a lot of it is as a result of those legislative changes. Yes, now, can you give me some examples of what the situation means on a day to day basis. I mean you touched on it just before when you talked about lawyers sort of not being able to see the people that they need to go in and see. But talk us through what it means on that day to day basis, it.

Means it matters aren't getting reached before the courts, so they're not somebody might be on quite a minor charge. It might be a driving offense, so you know a lot of people do get picked up for driving offenses, even for speeding over a certain limit. Is imprisonable, which means it's arrestable, which means you get brought before the court. So people or they might have a warrant for failing to attend for a driving matter for example. Now people like that won't be getting bail, and sometimes it means that they're not facing court on the first day. A lot of people, because the prisons are so for are not going to the prison, they're going to the watch houses. So they'll be in the watch houses for about seven days before they're even able. The lawyers or even their family might know where they are. So we can't find people because forty nine people aren't getting brought before the court. There's forty nine on a list, But there are various places around the Darwin and Greater Darwin area and watch houses and so on, so the difficult to find, difficult to get paperwork, difficult to get instructions from and again, so what you might have is people spending up to seven days in custody for what for something that they would never get a term of imprisonment for. They'd get a fine for it, but instead they've been shuffled in quite awful conditions in the watchhouses for that time. I had a prisoner the other day that was complaining that he hadn't had a shower. He was smelly. I preparated it back to the guards. He was worried he was getting an affection under his armor boil because he hadn't had a shower. So basic things like that are happening, and people are getting lost in the system because of the numbers and the pressure.

Means it matters aren't getting reached before the courts, so they're not somebody might be on quite a minor charge. It might be a driving offense, so you know a lot of people do get picked up for driving offenses, even for speeding over a certain limit. Is imprisonable, which means it's arrestable, which means you get brought before the court. So people or they might have a warrant for failing to attend for a driving matter for example. Now people like that won't be getting bail, and sometimes it means that they're not facing court on the first day. A lot of people, because the prisons are so for are not going to the prison, they're going to the watch houses. So they'll be in the watch houses for about seven days before they're even able. The lawyers or even their family might know where they are. So we can't find people because forty nine people aren't getting brought before the court. There's forty nine on a list, But there are various places around the Darwin and Greater Darwin area and watch houses and so on, so the difficult to find, difficult to get paperwork, difficult to get instructions from and again, so what you might have is people spending up to seven days in custody for what for something that they would never get a term of imprisonment for. They'd get a fine for it, but instead they've been shuffled in quite awful conditions in the watchhouses for that time. I had a prisoner the other day that was complaining that he hadn't had a shower. He was smelly. I preparated it back to the guards. He was worried he was getting an affection under his armor boil because he hadn't had a shower. So basic things like that are happening, and people are getting lost in the system because of the numbers and the pressure.

But if I know some people listening will be going, well, you know, we don't want criminals out on the street, people who've broken the law out on the street. But from what you're saying to me, you know, in some instances you are talking about offenses which may not be as serious as what our listeners might think they are. Would that be correct?

But if I know some people listening will be going, well, you know, we don't want criminals out on the street, people who've broken the law out on the street. But from what you're saying to me, you know, in some instances you are talking about offenses which may not be as serious as what our listeners might think they are. Would that be correct?

That's right? And when a lot of the listeners hearing this saying, well, this would never happen to me because I don't break the law. So I don't have to worry about it. This is about criminals. They're getting what they deserve. But imagine this scenario. Imagine you're having an argument with your neighbor and there's some neighborhood dispute that's happening, and they ring the police. They make a complaint against you. It's not true, but the police doesn't know that. There's no If you're getting arrested straight away, just say they've said you've asulted them, You get in prison, you get locked up, You then can't speak to anybody, can't establish your innocence. We lose this presumption of innocence because we're getting arrested straight away, remanded, spending a week in custody before you've even spoken to anybody. So apply that to yourself and it could happen to you. This is what's happening now in our prison system, in our correction system, our justice system, and we all should have pause for concern of that.

That's right? And when a lot of the listeners hearing this saying, well, this would never happen to me because I don't break the law. So I don't have to worry about it. This is about criminals. They're getting what they deserve. But imagine this scenario. Imagine you're having an argument with your neighbor and there's some neighborhood dispute that's happening, and they ring the police. They make a complaint against you. It's not true, but the police doesn't know that. There's no If you're getting arrested straight away, just say they've said you've asulted them, You get in prison, you get locked up, You then can't speak to anybody, can't establish your innocence. We lose this presumption of innocence because we're getting arrested straight away, remanded, spending a week in custody before you've even spoken to anybody. So apply that to yourself and it could happen to you. This is what's happening now in our prison system, in our correction system, our justice system, and we all should have pause for concern of that.

But in terms of what could be done to try and move things along more quickly, because we've got an enormous number of people on remand as well, there is no doubt that we need to get things moving much more quickly by the sounds of things, what could be done.

But in terms of what could be done to try and move things along more quickly, because we've got an enormous number of people on remand as well, there is no doubt that we need to get things moving much more quickly by the sounds of things, what could be done.

Yes, so we've got about over fifty percent on remand so just a huge amount of that's where we're seeing the spikes of people that aren't being seen by courts. There's a few really easy things that could happen. We could have longer sitting days at court because using the example I did before, the lawyers aren't ready to go until two o'clock. And to say that we'll start at nine point thirty and make sure all the lawyers are ready, it's not going to happen because of what takes the time. It takes the time to get the paperwork, to speak to your client, to get a plan ready, to be able to do a plea or a bail application or adjourning a matter, all of those things take time. If we had longer sitting days and two courts stood up in the afternoon rather than the morning to take the overflow. I know that we've got one extra judge that's going to be appointed later in the year, and that that's good, But when we're talking about two hundred and fifty percent spikes, it's not going to cover it. But if we do at least have a number of courts running in the afternoon and longest sitting days. Then what we might see is that we're getting to three o'clock at the end of the day, which is not even the end of a day, and from three o'clock we're getting cut offs and everything's getting adjourned to the next day. So then we just have the same thing. It's Groundhog Day at court and instead of actually getting through matters with longer days, then instead of ajourning everything off and you have to start again.

Yes, so we've got about over fifty percent on remand so just a huge amount of that's where we're seeing the spikes of people that aren't being seen by courts. There's a few really easy things that could happen. We could have longer sitting days at court because using the example I did before, the lawyers aren't ready to go until two o'clock. And to say that we'll start at nine point thirty and make sure all the lawyers are ready, it's not going to happen because of what takes the time. It takes the time to get the paperwork, to speak to your client, to get a plan ready, to be able to do a plea or a bail application or adjourning a matter, all of those things take time. If we had longer sitting days and two courts stood up in the afternoon rather than the morning to take the overflow. I know that we've got one extra judge that's going to be appointed later in the year, and that that's good, But when we're talking about two hundred and fifty percent spikes, it's not going to cover it. But if we do at least have a number of courts running in the afternoon and longest sitting days. Then what we might see is that we're getting to three o'clock at the end of the day, which is not even the end of a day, and from three o'clock we're getting cut offs and everything's getting adjourned to the next day. So then we just have the same thing. It's Groundhog Day at court and instead of actually getting through matters with longer days, then instead of ajourning everything off and you have to start again.

It seems crazy to me that, you know, like that sounds like quite a logical and simple thing to do to just extend the you know, to extend the day, have longer sitting dues.

It seems crazy to me that, you know, like that sounds like quite a logical and simple thing to do to just extend the you know, to extend the day, have longer sitting dues.

Well, because if we need more court rooms, for example, than instead of building a whole new courthouse, we just use them for longer And that seems to make sense.

Well, because if we need more court rooms, for example, than instead of building a whole new courthouse, we just use them for longer And that seems to make sense.

And so I mean, why is something like that not happening.

And so I mean, why is something like that not happening.

I don't know. I did. I gave them the suggestion earlier on in the year, and I don't know what hasn't been enacted. There's a few things you'd need to do. You need to get the court stuff, perhaps on split shift, so you there's a bit of recruitment that we need to happen in order to stand that up. That doesn't seem to be like an overwhelming hurdle.

I don't know. I did. I gave them the suggestion earlier on in the year, and I don't know what hasn't been enacted. There's a few things you'd need to do. You need to get the court stuff, perhaps on split shift, so you there's a bit of recruitment that we need to happen in order to stand that up. That doesn't seem to be like an overwhelming hurdle.

I mean, Beth, if we're able to do that, if we were able to extend those sitting days and we're able to push through some of these cases a little bit more quickly, what impact do you think that would have more broadly, not just for you know, for those that are waiting for their cases to be heard, but even when you look at you know, victims of crime, everybody within the system.

I mean, Beth, if we're able to do that, if we were able to extend those sitting days and we're able to push through some of these cases a little bit more quickly, what impact do you think that would have more broadly, not just for you know, for those that are waiting for their cases to be heard, but even when you look at you know, victims of crime, everybody within the system.

So it would mean that we've got less delay, that we could see a reduction in the remand rate because people would be processed more quickly, they might be sentenced more quickly, which takes them out of that Romand population and into the sentence prisoner, which is and it is the pressure in the Roman population that the problem is in terms of victims. What we are seeing at the moment is with an overwhelmed system and people just dealing with the duty court, the remand the arrest in Romand courts, then the hearing courts don't necessarily get enough attention, and so what we can see is matters getting adjourned when we've got witnesses summons, victims summons to attend for their court date and those matters not getting reached. And now that should be a real concern for people too, and that's been occurring all year with the added pressure that matters just aren't getting reached.

So it would mean that we've got less delay, that we could see a reduction in the remand rate because people would be processed more quickly, they might be sentenced more quickly, which takes them out of that Romand population and into the sentence prisoner, which is and it is the pressure in the Roman population that the problem is in terms of victims. What we are seeing at the moment is with an overwhelmed system and people just dealing with the duty court, the remand the arrest in Romand courts, then the hearing courts don't necessarily get enough attention, and so what we can see is matters getting adjourned when we've got witnesses summons, victims summons to attend for their court date and those matters not getting reached. And now that should be a real concern for people too, and that's been occurring all year with the added pressure that matters just aren't getting reached.

Well, yeah, I believe correct me if I've got these numbers wrong. But when I caught up with Najar a couple of weeks ago that actually said that when you talk about remand, I think the average in the Northern Territory court was about ninety days on remand, and then in the Supreme Court think it was around three hundred days. Yeah, I mean they're massive numbers.

Well, yeah, I believe correct me if I've got these numbers wrong. But when I caught up with Najar a couple of weeks ago that actually said that when you talk about remand, I think the average in the Northern Territory court was about ninety days on remand, and then in the Supreme Court think it was around three hundred days. Yeah, I mean they're massive numbers.

Yes they are. The Supreme Court is dealing with much more serious offenses and if you're listing no matter for trial, then three hundred days is probably comparable to other places in Australia because they're the serious offenses. But what has really spiked is the proportion of prisoners on remand in the local court. And that's about listing days very much so listing a matter for hearings or directions, and those lists are really blowing out. So and that's just an administrative logistical thing, and it is frustrating the ability to have an effective justice system all round for everybody involved in it.

Yes they are. The Supreme Court is dealing with much more serious offenses and if you're listing no matter for trial, then three hundred days is probably comparable to other places in Australia because they're the serious offenses. But what has really spiked is the proportion of prisoners on remand in the local court. And that's about listing days very much so listing a matter for hearings or directions, and those lists are really blowing out. So and that's just an administrative logistical thing, and it is frustrating the ability to have an effective justice system all round for everybody involved in it.

Well, Berthwhild I always appreciate your time. I know you're a busy woman. Thank you very much for joining me in the studio this morning. Thank you Katie, thank you

Well, Berthwhild I always appreciate your time. I know you're a busy woman. Thank you very much for joining me in the studio this morning. Thank you Katie, thank you