The budget estimates process still underway this week and the Health Minister Steve Edgington in the hot seat. Yesterday, there were questions raised about code yellows at Royal Darwin Hospital. Now, when we last caught up with the outgoing NT President of the AMA, doctor Robert Parker, he had said to us on the show that there had been a directive from NT Health not to call them even though they were needed. Now the Minister rejected those claims, saying there were regular meetings to address any capacity concerns or pressures. Now, what we do know is there were eleven code yellows called at Royal Darwin and Palmerston Hospitals in the twenty three to twenty four financial year, but there have been none since the COLP came to government last August. The Health Minister and Health Executive remaining firm that there hasn't been a need to call code yellows with patient flows and capacity issues being managed in other ways. But is that the case? Well, joining me on the show is the NT branch President of the AMA, the Australian Medical Association, doctor John Zorbis. Good morning to you, Doctor.

The budget estimates process still underway this week and the Health Minister Steve Edgington in the hot seat. Yesterday, there were questions raised about code yellows at Royal Darwin Hospital. Now, when we last caught up with the outgoing NT President of the AMA, doctor Robert Parker, he had said to us on the show that there had been a directive from NT Health not to call them even though they were needed. Now the Minister rejected those claims, saying there were regular meetings to address any capacity concerns or pressures. Now, what we do know is there were eleven code yellows called at Royal Darwin and Palmerston Hospitals in the twenty three to twenty four financial year, but there have been none since the COLP came to government last August. The Health Minister and Health Executive remaining firm that there hasn't been a need to call code yellows with patient flows and capacity issues being managed in other ways. But is that the case? Well, joining me on the show is the NT branch President of the AMA, the Australian Medical Association, doctor John Zorbis. Good morning to you, Doctor.

Zorbis, Morning Katie. Thanks having us back and buddy.

Zorbis, Morning Katie. Thanks having us back and buddy.

Listeners, thank you so much for your time this morning. Now, doctor Zorbis, I mean code yellows, capacity issues, whatever you call them. Are we still having them at our hospitals.

Listeners, thank you so much for your time this morning. Now, doctor Zorbis, I mean code yellows, capacity issues, whatever you call them. Are we still having them at our hospitals.

Yes, that's clear. We've been like this since roughly twenty sixteen, and whatever you call them. And I'm glad you're pointing out that you know there's a labels are just labels, whatever you call it. We're full, We're more than full. And the problem is still there.

Yes, that's clear. We've been like this since roughly twenty sixteen, and whatever you call them. And I'm glad you're pointing out that you know there's a labels are just labels, whatever you call it. We're full, We're more than full. And the problem is still there.

Doctors Orbis, why would there be a need or a push to not call them code yellows if that's something that gets called around the nation and other hospitals do it.

Doctors Orbis, why would there be a need or a push to not call them code yellows if that's something that gets called around the nation and other hospitals do it.

I think the problem with a code yellow is it's a blurry measure. So a code blue, which is when there's a medical emergency in a hospital, is very clear. A code blue across the country looks the same everywhere. Okay, yellow. It's finicky, and it's often designed or managed by people who aren't working on the front line. It's not clear when they should or shouldn't be called. And that's a problem because really what we need is a good response to a hospital that doesn't have enough beds for the patient demand. That it's seeing.

I think the problem with a code yellow is it's a blurry measure. So a code blue, which is when there's a medical emergency in a hospital, is very clear. A code blue across the country looks the same everywhere. Okay, yellow. It's finicky, and it's often designed or managed by people who aren't working on the front line. It's not clear when they should or shouldn't be called. And that's a problem because really what we need is a good response to a hospital that doesn't have enough beds for the patient demand. That it's seeing.

So doctor Zorbis talk us through some of the capacity issues that we are experiencing. I mean, is it at both Royal Darwin and also the Palmerston Hospital or is it a situation where it is really the emergency ward at Royal Darwin Hospital that is copying at most what's the go.

So doctor Zorbis talk us through some of the capacity issues that we are experiencing. I mean, is it at both Royal Darwin and also the Palmerston Hospital or is it a situation where it is really the emergency ward at Royal Darwin Hospital that is copying at most what's the go.

Yeah, so you can treat both hospitals in the same bucket, really, because if a patient is seen at Palstan and needs to be admitted under surgery or medicine, they need to be transferred to Royal Darwin. So ultimately that's still a bed that we need. The eds are a symptom of a bigger problem. The emergency departments are a beautiful window into your health system. If you want to see where the problems are and your healths, go go sit in your emergency department. And I know any of your listeners who've been at Roll Dalnald Palmerston, not even recently, I mean in the last few years, will know that the weights are getting longer and longer for beds.

Yeah, so you can treat both hospitals in the same bucket, really, because if a patient is seen at Palstan and needs to be admitted under surgery or medicine, they need to be transferred to Royal Darwin. So ultimately that's still a bed that we need. The eds are a symptom of a bigger problem. The emergency departments are a beautiful window into your health system. If you want to see where the problems are and your healths, go go sit in your emergency department. And I know any of your listeners who've been at Roll Dalnald Palmerston, not even recently, I mean in the last few years, will know that the weights are getting longer and longer for beds.

Yeah, so are you able to quantify that a little bit for us? I mean, just what kinds of periods are people waiting for? Or you know, are we having to sort of see people. I don't know whether you call it double bunked or what you call it when there's a couple of people in the one sort of area, talk us through us.

Yeah, so are you able to quantify that a little bit for us? I mean, just what kinds of periods are people waiting for? Or you know, are we having to sort of see people. I don't know whether you call it double bunked or what you call it when there's a couple of people in the one sort of area, talk us through us.

Yeah, Look, there is a thing called access block, and I want to talk about that because that's the national objective measure of when you've got a bed pressure problem. So access block. If you rock up to an e D, you get seen and the doctors say, look, you need to come into hospital, you start a timer. And if eight hours later you still haven't gone to where you need to go, if you still haven't gone to your ward bed, if you still haven't gone to the operating theater, if you still haven't gone to the ICU, your hospital where your emergency department is in access block, and that is the clearest sign that you don't have the available beds that you need to support the patients that you're seeing. And we can talk about how long people wait, and everybody's got a story because this is the reality. You know, we've had there's a ABC investigation recently on mental health and we have patients in New South Wales waiting for longer than eighty or ninety hours in ed now we definitely have seen that in the territory before. Everybody's got long waits. What I want to focus on is longer than eight hours to get to your bed. That's a problem. And past that it's just it's just more more hours. But that the trigger should be eight hours.

Yeah, Look, there is a thing called access block, and I want to talk about that because that's the national objective measure of when you've got a bed pressure problem. So access block. If you rock up to an e D, you get seen and the doctors say, look, you need to come into hospital, you start a timer. And if eight hours later you still haven't gone to where you need to go, if you still haven't gone to your ward bed, if you still haven't gone to the operating theater, if you still haven't gone to the ICU, your hospital where your emergency department is in access block, and that is the clearest sign that you don't have the available beds that you need to support the patients that you're seeing. And we can talk about how long people wait, and everybody's got a story because this is the reality. You know, we've had there's a ABC investigation recently on mental health and we have patients in New South Wales waiting for longer than eighty or ninety hours in ed now we definitely have seen that in the territory before. Everybody's got long waits. What I want to focus on is longer than eight hours to get to your bed. That's a problem. And past that it's just it's just more more hours. But that the trigger should be eight hours.

Well, and I can't even begin to imagine the strain and the stress then that that puts all the staff that are in the emergency department under you know, when you've then got additional people turning up needing that emergency care and then you're already full and you're trying to get people on towards it must be really difficult for staff.

Well, and I can't even begin to imagine the strain and the stress then that that puts all the staff that are in the emergency department under you know, when you've then got additional people turning up needing that emergency care and then you're already full and you're trying to get people on towards it must be really difficult for staff.

Yeah, absolutely, because when you are blocks like that, it means you have less space to do what you need to do. So in the emergency department, that's less room to take care of the emergencies. But I will say this isn't just the emergency department. So the ward staff, you know, they're always under pressure to discharge people the emergency. The operating theaters are always under pressure to get through more cases. This is across all of health, even outside general practice, where you know people people are not able to get into general practice or the general practitioners are forced to deal with more and more, more and more complexity, and more and more patients presenting to their clinics. So it's just across the whole system.

Yeah, absolutely, because when you are blocks like that, it means you have less space to do what you need to do. So in the emergency department, that's less room to take care of the emergencies. But I will say this isn't just the emergency department. So the ward staff, you know, they're always under pressure to discharge people the emergency. The operating theaters are always under pressure to get through more cases. This is across all of health, even outside general practice, where you know people people are not able to get into general practice or the general practitioners are forced to deal with more and more, more and more complexity, and more and more patients presenting to their clinics. So it's just across the whole system.

Doctor's orbis in terms of you know, that access block and people waiting more than eight hours to then get into a ward or to go to where they need to go. How often would you say that we're dealing with that in the NT daily basis.

Doctor's orbis in terms of you know, that access block and people waiting more than eight hours to then get into a ward or to go to where they need to go. How often would you say that we're dealing with that in the NT daily basis.

So you know, every now and then we'll have a day where we're lucky or things have worked well for whatever reason. You know, every everybody's out camping, But for the most part, it's a daily occurrence.

So you know, every now and then we'll have a day where we're lucky or things have worked well for whatever reason. You know, every everybody's out camping, But for the most part, it's a daily occurrence.

So from your perspective, and I mean since taking on the role, because it is something that we've spoken to doctor Robert Parker about. I mean, had there been a directive to not call code yellows or to not sort of call when there is these concerns.

So from your perspective, and I mean since taking on the role, because it is something that we've spoken to doctor Robert Parker about. I mean, had there been a directive to not call code yellows or to not sort of call when there is these concerns.

Yeah, so the Health Department have said that they haven't suppressed code yellows and I haven't seen anything to say that that's not the case. But look, a lot of this comes down to bureaucracy. I suppose if you're full, you're full, Whether you call a code yellow or not. You know, now we're talking semantics and rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You know, full hospital is a full hospital and we just we want to focus on that. You know, there were eleven code yellows under the last management and zero. Now, anybody who's been into our hospitals will know that doesn't mean we've suddenly found a lot of space for our patients. We're still and that's the real problem.

Yeah, so the Health Department have said that they haven't suppressed code yellows and I haven't seen anything to say that that's not the case. But look, a lot of this comes down to bureaucracy. I suppose if you're full, you're full, Whether you call a code yellow or not. You know, now we're talking semantics and rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. You know, full hospital is a full hospital and we just we want to focus on that. You know, there were eleven code yellows under the last management and zero. Now, anybody who's been into our hospitals will know that doesn't mean we've suddenly found a lot of space for our patients. We're still and that's the real problem.

Well, it's more managing a pr issue rather than a capacity issue, i think, which really doesn't treat the issue.

Well, it's more managing a pr issue rather than a capacity issue, i think, which really doesn't treat the issue.

Yeah, and it's important that this government have committed to funding the operations of the new mental health ward. We've got a new general ward being built above the cafe area in Roaldo and it's important that that's funded as well. But these are things we've been calling for for many many years now. Roll DA has been full for a long time. Part of the issue is that when you look at how we're funded on a federal level, we get short changed. So territorians are not getting as much money as they should be. So the sickness that we have here for the number of people that we have here, and we've had conversations with the Health Minister about this, and we're in lockstep on making sure that the federal government funds US to the level that we need.

Yeah, and it's important that this government have committed to funding the operations of the new mental health ward. We've got a new general ward being built above the cafe area in Roaldo and it's important that that's funded as well. But these are things we've been calling for for many many years now. Roll DA has been full for a long time. Part of the issue is that when you look at how we're funded on a federal level, we get short changed. So territorians are not getting as much money as they should be. So the sickness that we have here for the number of people that we have here, and we've had conversations with the Health Minister about this, and we're in lockstep on making sure that the federal government funds US to the level that we need.

Doctor's orb us in terms of what can be done or you know, how we can change things, you know what needs to be changed to try t'sryan have an impact here. Obviously that additional federal funding is something I know the AMA has been calling for for a very long time. What else can be done at this point, Yeah, the.

Doctor's orb us in terms of what can be done or you know, how we can change things, you know what needs to be changed to try t'sryan have an impact here. Obviously that additional federal funding is something I know the AMA has been calling for for a very long time. What else can be done at this point, Yeah, the.

Low hanging fruit have been picked, that's for sure. I don't think there are magical efficiencies we're going to suddenly find that we haven't thought of. I think there are two main things we need to focus on. One is the resourcing, and that's making sure that we're funding our health service to the level that it needs to be funded at to deliver what we need for territorians. And the second is talk to the front line. So if you want to make solutions for the healthcare problems that we have, there's no point talking to the layers in the middle. Come to the frontline. Come to your emergency departments, come to your wards, come to your theaters, come to your general practices, come to your remote clinics and talk to the people delivering the services. Because those doctors and nurses have been doing this job for a long time, they know where the problems are and often, you know, a solution come up the well, yeah, obviously that's what we need to fix. The more we can focus on those problems at that level frontline to management, the more we can do with what we've got.

Low hanging fruit have been picked, that's for sure. I don't think there are magical efficiencies we're going to suddenly find that we haven't thought of. I think there are two main things we need to focus on. One is the resourcing, and that's making sure that we're funding our health service to the level that it needs to be funded at to deliver what we need for territorians. And the second is talk to the front line. So if you want to make solutions for the healthcare problems that we have, there's no point talking to the layers in the middle. Come to the frontline. Come to your emergency departments, come to your wards, come to your theaters, come to your general practices, come to your remote clinics and talk to the people delivering the services. Because those doctors and nurses have been doing this job for a long time, they know where the problems are and often, you know, a solution come up the well, yeah, obviously that's what we need to fix. The more we can focus on those problems at that level frontline to management, the more we can do with what we've got.

So, I mean, we're too from here for those doctors, nurses, all of the healthcare stuff that are really working in our hospitals at the moment. As we're you know, as we're dealing with these capacity issues. We're not calling code yellows, but we're still having to deal with those capacity issues. You know, we're too for them. Man, What is the message really for the government.

So, I mean, we're too from here for those doctors, nurses, all of the healthcare stuff that are really working in our hospitals at the moment. As we're you know, as we're dealing with these capacity issues. We're not calling code yellows, but we're still having to deal with those capacity issues. You know, we're too for them. Man, What is the message really for the government.

The message is exactly what we've said this morning, is to talk to those stuff, hear their concerns, hear their problems, hear their solutions, and let's make earnest efforts to work towards them. I don't think this is an unfixable problem, right. It's a very very hard problem and it's a problem we're seeing across Australia, not just here. But there are certainly things we could be doing better in the NT and that's what we'll keep doing, and we want your listeners to make sure that they advocate for that through their own members of Parliament and their own interactions with people they might know in healthcare and you know, let's get this sorted.

The message is exactly what we've said this morning, is to talk to those stuff, hear their concerns, hear their problems, hear their solutions, and let's make earnest efforts to work towards them. I don't think this is an unfixable problem, right. It's a very very hard problem and it's a problem we're seeing across Australia, not just here. But there are certainly things we could be doing better in the NT and that's what we'll keep doing, and we want your listeners to make sure that they advocate for that through their own members of Parliament and their own interactions with people they might know in healthcare and you know, let's get this sorted.

And doctors orbis. I know there has been you know, there's been some like you touched on the new mental health ward that is obviously going to help, I would imagine, I know they've been the announcement with the federal government prior to the federal election for additional aged care beds. I mean, we know all of these things will help, but I guess it's just how quickly they can get online too.

And doctors orbis. I know there has been you know, there's been some like you touched on the new mental health ward that is obviously going to help, I would imagine, I know they've been the announcement with the federal government prior to the federal election for additional aged care beds. I mean, we know all of these things will help, but I guess it's just how quickly they can get online too.

Yeah. Yeah, a lot of this stuff needed to have been built yesterday. And if we know that that's been our message for a long time. It's good to see that there's some money starting to flow. But we're going to have to move a lot faster than this, and especially in aged care. So we're now you know, two federal governments in on promises for funding in age care and age care facilities. We've got a huge number of acute hospital beds that are being occupied by patients who belong in care facilities and that's a big one, really big one.

Yeah. Yeah, a lot of this stuff needed to have been built yesterday. And if we know that that's been our message for a long time. It's good to see that there's some money starting to flow. But we're going to have to move a lot faster than this, and especially in aged care. So we're now you know, two federal governments in on promises for funding in age care and age care facilities. We've got a huge number of acute hospital beds that are being occupied by patients who belong in care facilities and that's a big one, really big one.

Well on Zorbis always appreciate your time. Thanks so much for having a chat.

Well on Zorbis always appreciate your time. Thanks so much for having a chat.

With us this morning, anytime, Katie.

With us this morning, anytime, Katie.

Thanks, thank you, thank you.

Thanks, thank you, thank you.