Hey, hey, everybody reversing from the shallow echoes of death all the way back to the beginning, just to leap on that strange, discombobulated ahead again. It's one upsmanship. I am one of your hosts, Adam Ganzer in with me, my fellow disturbed Journeyman. I were getting so much already about your interpretation, which I think is open to the fact that you would characterize the protagonists as a disturbed journeyman. I'm Michael Swain. I think that's beyond debate that he's a disturbed He's a disturbed journeyman. Speaking of older video games, did you ever play the Journeyman Project? I did not adventure game. I have missed out on that whole genre, and I am excited. I'm excited to explore more point and clicks in the coming months. I really am good. But not today, not today, because we're talking a puzzle platform or classic puzzle platformer and Indie Darling absolutely uh today. Yeah, this is one of those games I think everybody has heard of if they are remotely connected to video games. I don't know how many people have played it, Like, I don't know if it's a widely played game. As much as it's a widely known game discussed yea, yeah, kind of like I mean his subsequent game, The Witness, is a similar vibe where a lot of people are aware of it, but I don't know how many people actually played it or certainly beat it. Uh, but yeah, Braid the indie Darling. Today is the day that we're gonna dissect what exactly does it mean? We're gonna pick one me now, correct if I'm wrong. We've covered The Witness as well, right, we have not? We streamed it. We streamed it very briefly, but no, we did not cover it. Maybe we will though one day. I feel like I discussed it on a podcast for some reason, so maybe someone picked it as their favorite whatever, and in some other podcast we do. But regardless, in a nutshell, I didn't care for it very I didn't like The Witness, but I love Braid, and I'm very excited to discuss Braid. So let's get into it. Let's that's our first checkpoint means we past our check last checkpoint, but going the other way, but then we reverse our shadows, will be hosting our shadow passed the shadow checkpoint, which has green sparkles around it. Therefore, the checkpoint will always have been passed. Yeah. Good, so it's it's first Yeah. The first world we enter is a door, a cloud door labeled tell me like I made. It sounded like Adam was about to explain that I guess I am, I guess I am. Braid is, as Michael said, a puzzle platform video game. It's in the style of Mario game. Uh. In fact, you might even call it a commentary on a Mario game because it kind of is, except for it's much more puzzle oriented. All of the puzzles in this game revolve around the flow of time, which is to say, this is a game where sometimes the time puzzle will be that you can reverse time and make certain people or not people. I guess we'll call gramblins. Uh goobas go in the opposite direction, which may be helpful to get into a certain platform or not. Um, that's one way it could happen. You could, uh, it could reverse time and create a shadow of you that does the actions you previously did, which will affect the environment, and it gets and more complex from there. They are very It is a landmark in puzzle design for sure, particularly in in the platforming genre. UM. It was basically made by one guy whose name is Jonathan Blow, which is why we say it's an indie darling. He made it basically by himself and self funded. It was a three year project. He hired an artist to develop the assets, but essentially it's one guy's game, which is pretty striking. UM. It was released. The original version was released in two thousand six and one a bunch of accolades, and then it was released on the Xbox Live Arcade UH service, which is sort of one of the reasons why that became a well known service. UM it's kind of one of the big features from there, and now eventually it's sort of gotten into all the different platforms. UM. I think it made something like six million dollars, which is not a ton of money, but a lot for what this game is. In terms of scope, it's fairly short. It's like six worlds, all of which revolve around keys and UH. There's a sort of larger metaphors story that you're uncovering through assembling puzzle pieces, which lead to clarity on who your character is and his mysterious journey to reunite with a princess. Very much like Mario who he has misplaced, and uh. As the narrative goes along, we start to learn that perhaps it's not exactly the way he has described it. Um, And I know we will spoil this game, so uh, anybody who doesn't want it spoiled, take you know, four hours and go play this game and then come back and you'll hear our thoughts on that. And that's that's the that's all the news. How do you feel about that? I do a good job. I'm so sorry. I feel like I pushed you into doing to tell me like I'm a bit segment, which I had actually planned to do, and I just said, Adam's going to explain, and I meant you were going to explain in the nature of the segment. But then you did the segment and you nailed it. Oh good, Oh good. I'm talking because it's great. I don't think it's too much spoiler to say that you love this game. I really like the game. Um, I like it more now. I didn't. I thought I just wanted to cover it as a matter of course, as an important indie game. UM. But now having replayed it with a critical I I appreciate it even more. I think it's a great game, and I love that the creator of what is arguably one of the first breakout indie games of all time has a name that can just be shortened to Joe Blow, Like right, right, right, that's funny. Just some guy who made this game and it turns out it's really good. Do we do we consider Tim Schaeffer an indie GameMaker or is he or his games too? Well? I would consider Double Fine an indie development team, So he predates this guy by quite a bit. Yeah, well, I mean Tim Shaffer started out at Lucas Arts though, so no, I see, because Lucas is one of the richest was at least people in the universe at the time, I guess even richer now that Disney bought the Right and four bills, right were Bill bill um, But we're not here to talk Bill. We're here to talk Bray in the form of rants. We're gonna do right now. So we passed another checkpoint, which means we lost our wedding ring. This, by the way, highly responsible as someone who just got an engagement ring because I recently became engaged to my partner. Thank you, thank you. Um. You don't want you to frequently drop your wedding ring on the ground to solve car I tried it. Jan is not a fan. I'd be like solving a puzzle and they're like, why did you just lay your ring in the middle of the street, and I'm like the cars will slow trust me anyway, Brad joke, Uh, since you did? He tell me like I'm a bit segment I'll rant first, Yeah, please do alright? Player on logging in, signing up um, accepting terms and conditions forgetting to check unchecked the box that says I'll accept a bunch of random emails and get spammed into the stone. It's all worth it because I get to say how much I love Braid. Um. It's basically the first pretentious video game. And I um at peace with the fact that I am a pretentious human being, by which I mean the charitable I would give the charitable definition of pretentiousness, which is, I'm I'm cerebral, I'm fairly cerebral, and I'm interested in things that work to the top of my intelligence and challenge me and poke it my brain and give me a lot of stimulus to work with and spark my imagination. And I feel like Braid does all those things with a minimum of elements in a really impressive way, and it takes itself seriously and it's explicitly intended for adults to digest. Whereas if you are a young, fairly young person, likely you know, an eleven year old can play Mario Brothers. I don't know that they'd be able to conquer these puzzles. They're so conceptually complex, and furthermore, I don't think they'd get anything much of anything at all from the blocks of texts that form the games story. Such as it is. Uh, it is a it. It is a progenitor to things that I consider really artistically ambitious indie platformers, puzzle platformers like uh, you know, Limbo and Inside and some of my favorite games of all time. It is it's a throwback episode because I do feel like Braid feels, especially just the art itself. It feels dated in a way, even more dated than old school Mario games, because those are so seminal that they almost feel timeless. Like I can play Sonic too, I can play Super Mario Brothers or Super Mario World, and the graphics never feel dated because it always feels like, well, it is the thing itself. It is the or video game. But I do not feel that about Braid. I play it and I'm like, well, you know, it is what it is for the time. It's like an Apple Cafe game. Um, but it's not about that. And this is one of the first game experiences I ever had where I was like, it's not about that, because it's about the actual design of what the puzzles are and how spectacularly smart they are. Um. I would almost well, this is probably saying too much, but I would almost compare Jonathan Blow, or at least Braid's Jonathan Blow to Charlie Kaufman because it's intensely it's intensely interested in deconstructing the medium and actually examining the nature of interactivity itself through the puzzles, like Braid's whole deal is the function of the puzzle provides commentary on the blah blah blah like on the like topic at hand, and in fact, Braid is the game that is the reason I know the term ludo narrative, which means story told through the functionality of the interactive object itself. Um, which is a term you here thrown around a lot in game design, but I never heard that term until or had even had a reason to have a mental conception for that term before I came across Braid and had to explain Braid or discuss Braid with my friends. So I do think Braid holds a very special place in my heart, as like the first indie game and Capital I indie not just indie meaning independent, small budget, but also meaning self serious and pretentious and cerebral in the way that indie film is like it feels indie, it feels twee. The main character is a white guy in a suit who's sad. You know what, um what do you call him? A disturbed disturbed journeyman, post ambulist whatever. Yeah, anyway, I'm wrapping up my ran here seating my time to my colleague from across the aisle, Mr Adam Ganzer. Thank you so much, uh player too, Adam Ganzer plugging again. So I really didn't like playing this game, and I'm so sorry I didn't like it. Uh, I know, I know, I know. I Look, here's the thing that that's stuck out about it. Immediately brilliant puzzles like wow, these are really smart and interesting, and yeah, I do actually like the storytelling quite a bit too. I just didn't find this fun. Um for me, the missing element here is is it fun? And it's not fun to me? Uh, in part because of things that are kind of beyond his control. Like if you're gonna make fun of a Mario game and that's fine, or satirize it or comment on it, you better be pretty good at this, because Mario is real good at it. Uh. And this game just pales in comparison in terms of fun to a Mario game. Now, Mario has never even approached the alory telling finesse. That is it on display by this one individual, you know what I mean? Like, it's so impressive that one guy did this that I can't I I feel bad saying anything negative about it because it's such a triumph. Um. I do think the writing is pretentious. Um. I think it could be clearer. I don't think that it being vague is a cool thing. I think it's like, now, you could have just told your story and I think it would be fine. Um. And the fact that he's sort of obfuscated things further in his subsequent like everything in the game means something sort of rants after the fact, when people have asked him to clarify things. They're like, well, now I'm starting to get annoyed with you because I, I, uh, I loved the thing you did. I just thought it was a little too obscure and pedantic, and adding to that is the wrong move, Like clarifying would have been the right move to me, and like let it stand as what it is, um, because a great indie film, contrary to how most people feel about it, is actually usually very clear. It's just an experience that wouldn't normally make a blockbuster film, but they're extremely clear and emotionally affecting. And in this case, I think we're dealing with something that's not that clear, but that we desperately want to have more of a connection to to like it. Um. And now I'm just talking about the story. I think the story is cool what from what of it I could deduce and the stuff that emerged from my research online. But again I didn't understand it when I had played it. So I think that means that it's not that well told, and it could be. UM. But you will never hear me say a word about these puzzles being bad puzzles. They're not. They're really really cool. They're one of a kind. I've seen stuff that ripped this off, since this guy's clearly contributed something important to the gaming medium, and I can't take that away from him, even though I didn't have fun playing the game. That's my rant. It is endlessly fascinating to me that you could be me talking about elden Ring and how different elden Ring and Braid are and hold that thought because this is going to be a recurring thing throughout this episode. But when you're saying, look, the story had a cool vibe to it, but it wasn't really clearly laid out, I'm like, yeah, elden Ring, Yeah, And I agree with you, and like, I just didn't have fun beating my head against these really difficult things over and over only to finally get it and move on. And so I guess that was it. That's how I feel about elden Ring. Yeah, I mean that's legitimate. So it just tells it's just fascinating to me that we there is no we have still not unlocked the key formula to like you said it, man, this is why GamePro had a segment called fun Factor, and you're just like, I just don't find that fun and and that's so personal and it's so endlessly interesting to me that art is that personal and subjective. Um. So I'm excited to talk more about Braid with my good friend Adam too. When we come back from this quick break and we're back talking not elden ring, you might be persuaded to believe otherwise. Um, we're talking Braid here on one opsmanship. It's an indie day, And I guess maybe instead of saying indie, I should have said art house because that is very I think that's accurate. It is it is indie because it's one guy without a lot of money doing it. So you're right about um can I So? I I realized when I was trying to gather my thoughts for this game, for this game, some of some personal observations that I want to reflect back to you because I think it will avoid us debating overly about what's good and bad about the game. Um. And that is this. So there's an amount of puzzle that I discovered I like, and then there's an amount of puzzle that I don't like, Like that's too much puzzle, like to intricate or deta hailed or abstract Uh. And I think that It's probably comparable to how you feel about combat or difficulty in games. So like it's like, it's the combat version of that is my is what I like. Your version is the puzzle version where I'm like, uh, I might be just kind of an average game or when it comes to puzzles. So let me give you some examples. The thing, the reason I've always loved Zelda is that Zelda is exactly the amount of puzzle that isn't hard for me but challenges me for a couple of beats, you know what I mean, Like, oh, how am I gonna do this? Oh? I see, it's this and that. Most of the time I'm just sort of skating through, but once in a great while, uh, it stumps me for a minute or two. That's Zelda. And that's the amount of puzzle I want. I don't want uh missed Like that's I was just gonna say. I In contrast, I like Riven. I yeah, and I don't want that. I find missed and Riven to be uh antithetical to a fun experience, and I don't enjoy it because I feel embarrassed a little bit. Like so one thing I've realized I can't stream these kind of games, because if I do that, I'm gonna get angry at them and stumped and feel embarrassed and not enjoy it. And that brings up a second criteria that I feel like I want to introduce, which is the amount that I want a game to be mentally active versus how much I want it to be relaxing. So I've realized one of the things I like about video games is that in general, they relax me. Um, But that doesn't mean I like relaxing games per se, like say an Animal Crossing or something like that. Like I could be relaxed while I'm playing Call of Duty, you know. Um, I can even be relaxed to a degree when I'm playing a from Soft game because there's kind of a rhythm to it. Puzzle games don't relax me. They kind of they kind of demand my attention, and therefore I find myself getting more frustrated with them when I can't do it quickly. Um, which I if I hear a lot of people describe movies that way, like that's just a movie. I can turn my brain off and absorb it, and I can't do that with movies, Like I find them all endlessly riveting. But I like that about them. Um, I don't like that about video games that much, so I kind of I guess I'm introducing that as a thing that a reason why maybe this game didn't connect for me, because it does require a lot of brain power sometimes to like imagine what this guy is gonna do and how you could use it to get up to a platform in like later levels in particular, like it's pretty challenging. Um, well, it's a potential. I think I can say it without making it a spoiler. But information about The Witness Jonathan blows follow up games. The reason now one didn't connect with me is it follows kind of a similar formula, which is uh similar. It's interesting because it's a formula that is similar and yet each iteration of it is wildly different. In Braid it's all built around platforming, and in The Witness it's built around mazes, simple mazes or like navigating a labyrinth pattern. And this is totally inexplicable to me. But at the end of the day, I'm so familiar with platforming that platforming feels natural to me. I like platforming. It's one of my favorite genres, and so Solving puzzles in that way is endlessly riveting to me, and I'm the opposite of you. I like to be to engage my brain as much as possible. That's the main thing I'm looking for the video games. That's what I think is unique about it being interactive as it can require a lot of me and I'm sure I find it stimulating. And so what's really cool about and what sort of Jonathan Blow's signature is that there's one type of puzzle that begets another type of meta puzzle. And without getting into what it is, because I don't want to spoil that twist, it's almost a conceptual ship, a paradigm shift in your brain, a conceptual twist that happens part way through the game where you go, um, you know so. So, without spoiling the one in the Witness, I'll just give one for example that's in Braid. I found myself wishing a lot of times. I had to because it's a hardass game. A lot of times I had to rewind to the entire beginning of the level right and I'd hold shift and I'd start reversing, which is the core mechanic of the game's reversing time, and I would go, I wish there was a way to speed up the reversal, like when you fast forward double speed, quadruple speed. And then I realized you could do that by pressing the arrow keys. Then it suddenly occurred to me, in a doctor house like flash of inspiration as I stared into the middle distance that I could solve one of the puzzles that I had never figured out how to solve by using that mechanic, because there are these things that shine with green ristal energy that are not effective by time displacement. And it occurred to me, oh, is it possible that that I can speed up my rewind and it still doesn't affect the things in the green crystals? And indeed that's true, and that's the solution to one of the puzzles. So the point is, um Jonathan Blow understands the joy of a puzzle requiring you to think outside the box, and that feels we get the same high off that that we would get off a major plot twist. It would be as if you were playing across a book of crossword puzzles and you realize that the book itself is physically a puzzle. Somehow, you know what I mean. It's like he pulls that trick, and he pulls that trick in the witness as well, and I find that endlessly like whoa like like a roller coaster, like a magic trick. I just love He's he's really good at using every tool in a way that's narratively meaningful, like and I think in a sense like if you think of solving the puzzle as part of the story of the game, which he wants you to. Uh, every suite of tools is not just a suite of tools, but also narratively meaningful. It is the story itself. Example the base example. I did want to at some point go through what each world is. But in World two, the game starts with World two and ends with World one. There's a lot of little storytelling flourishes. But um, in World two you're introduced to the basic mechanic, which is you can reverse time. But the way you're introduced by that to that idea is a written monologue where he talks about the idea of flirting with someone. Two people flirting, and every and it occurs to one of them. Man if I could just reverse time at will, what would exist as the result of that would be a timeline where we have the perfect meat cue to experience and fall deeply in love quote, with all of our mistakes safely away, tucked away in the folds of time, hitting from one another. And like that idea is so compelling to me, moments tucked away in the folds of time to leave only a perfect experience. And then it develops this whole storyline that is either So that's my next question, what did you think it was about? What did you get from this story? Okay, so, I for a very long time thought it was about a guy trying to edit the history of his relationship to get it back a woman that he lost. Like, that's what it seemed like to me. And then the puzzles themselves, like as in the actual puzzle pieces that form a picture, seemed to suggest it was his alcoholism the drove away. Um, fascinating, and that's what I That's what I got. And then uh, the you know, I didn't quite finish this game, so I ended up watching videos at the end. Um and the very last level was awesome where you sort of play the whole thing out and then in reverse it it suggests the evil monster you've been trying to save her from is actually you, uh, which you know, but that sounds like the you know, cool twist, but it kind of was a cool twist. It's crazy. Okay. So two things about that level. One, that level is in reverse when you play it, four entertaining when you reverse, the score finally plays normally, et cetera. And Two, Yeah, what Adam is saying, I just want to break down the brilliance of it is like it is scripted in such a way that you watched the basic Mario Bowser trope of some big lug stealing your princess and running away. Then when you play that dialogue in reverse, it reads as if she consentually left you for someone else and you're just being whiny and clinging Like that's it gets totally re contextualized by virtue of the fact that you're reversing it in that in that sense, it has meaningfully contributed to Mario, like like I mean to you know, to give this guy some credit. The most recent Mario game, right, Super Mario Odyssey, they make that point that Mario and Bowser at the end they're sort of the same um and I think you can trace that back to to some degree interacting with you know, the culture we live in. But also I think to Braid, I think Brad is sort of a precursor of that realization for Nintendo. Um, and that's awesome. It's the natural end point of taking that relationship. Seriously, absolutely, Yeah, that's that's like the realization you have to arrive. And that's what he you know, I think that's at least a big part of the commentary he made about Mario Games. I mean, the other thing I think is that like how simplistic they are compared to what they could be. I think he sort of inadvertently makes that not even with simplistic elements, his puzzles aren't cluttered there. They are far more detailed and intricate with simple mechanics than any Mario level. Um, for better for worse, I would say for worse. But sometimes they're you have to be so smart, they're extremely challenged supposed to think of that. Well, that's the thing. How is I supposed to think of that? But I want to get back to that in a minute. Um So I I that's what I took from it for a pretty long time. And then I the books that you read at the end, uh suggested that actually this woman herself as a metaphor for a different thing, and that different thing is an atomic bomb, and that this guy and this guy is actually desperately trying to invent the atomic bomb that then becomes this destroyer of worlds, and so he becomes a monster by abstraction. And there's a lot of clues. It's not a subtle thing. There's a lot of clues that build to it. And then like there is a version of the game if you've unlocked all the Stars or whatever it is, where if you you can actually catch her while she's running away from you, if you will, and she explode when you do that, and you're running away from a wall of fire that has not existed in the game up to that point, which further reinforces this idea. And um, it seems pretty clear that that metaphor is there, it's being intentionally evoked. If I can read a quote from that bit. After an especially for a night of tinkering, he kneeled behind a bunker in the desert. He held a piece of welder's glass up to his eyes and waited. On that moment, hung eternity, Time stood still space contracted to a pinpoint. It was as though the earth had opened and the sky split. One felt as though he had been privileged to witness the birth of the world. Someone near him said it worked. Someone else said, we're now we are all sons of bitches, which are actual, real quotes from when they teest. So okay, it's got to be intentional. Yeah, it's intentional, and you're gonna hate what I have to say next. But I'm like, that makes me a little less excited about this game, because I know the atomic bomb is bad. I've consumed all of media for the last you know, forty years. Nobody thinks it's good. So like, I guess I don't. I guess I don't understand why that level of metaphor is an improvement or interesting other than like it's another puzzle. Does it help if I add a third point that there's then later a panel about how his mom used to always walk in by the same Randy story but never let him go inside. And that's obviously a vignette about um somehow, in a primal way, probably in childhood, having that need instilled in you for the thing right, I want candy. It's the base metaphor for um just being object and achievement oriented and having a dream and lusting after it. And I think that that invites us to view them both the atomic bomb, layer and the er as none of these are literal. It is the same thing as trying to achieve solving a puzzle. It is just a meditation on the act of wanting something so bad, achieving it and then it immediately losing its luster, which is true about romantic relationships. It's true about inventing the atomic bomb, and it's true about solving a puzzle. As soon as you know the solution, it's not a magic trick anymore. You wouldn't do it again, You know it, You know what I mean. So I think it's actually just a meditation on that basic process wanting, getting not wanting anything by virtue of the fact that you take possession of something, it immediately loses its you know, the moment the elusive satisfaction of a thing. The elusiveness of satisfaction itself is the princess to me, And I'm that is a fair statement. Yeah, Well, it's especially true for people like us who dedicate themselves to a craft that's about creation and then you know, suddenly it's over. You know again, I've I've used this term before, but that's what That's what people mean when they say when they talk about idolatry. You know what I mean, Like, that's that's the term that the ancient term to describe this phenomenon, which is elevating a thing beyond its ability to satisfy. And it puts me in the mind of uh, an experience I get from a lot of open world RPGs, especially, I especially get it in the Fallout franchise, which is a kind of depression that sets in when I love a game so much and I've spent maybe eighty hours in it, and I suddenly realize that all dialogue I'm experiencing is canned and I've heard before exhausted, all the new thing is gone. This world is not alive anymore. The new Thing's done. That's and I'm still in the over world. I could wander around as long as I want, but it feels weird and hollow now and I'm done. I mean, I know how And that's how I felt, You're gonna hate this. That's how I felt about elden Ring. I really did. I was like, man, this is gonna be over student. I'm sad, uh, And I think that in some ways our society is structured around the idea of eradicating that by constantly supplying new candies, you know what I mean, whether whether candy is good for you or satisfying ever. Well, I mean, like, for instance, you and I we do a video game podcast, right, which is a way a way of allowing ourselves to constantly be chasing a new experience, you know, like now now our jobs reward that, so we're allowed to do it. Uh. And the pro and con of that is that, uh, you'll never you probably won't have those special, unique video game experiences because you're constantly chasing a new thing. And I think that this game is sort of saying, by abstraction that the only way, like you'll either mourn the thing because it was special, or you'll never experience the love again if you just constantly flood yourself with stimuli. Yeah, And there is I mean, technically, if that's your story set up, there is a story resolution, which is the ending where you as you complete worlds, it produces these little bricks and metaphorical bricks, and at the end he builds because you're as Ala Mario. You're constantly looking for the princess, and she's always in another castle. And at the end of the game, there's a brief vignette where if you complete every single puzzle, you get to see a quote unquote true ending or whatever, where you use the bricks that represent your experiences to build your own castle, which is this humble little castle that has a humble little flag. And you're like, but at least it's real, at least it's mine, right, And that is a true statement about the only thing you can do in the face of that of idolatry. I mean that's cultivates some sort of inner inner resiliency or inner space that feels real to you find a thing that actually satisfies whatever that thing is, you know, whether that thing exists is I think the subject of much is just a font of that's within you, you know, but it is, and I do that's a cool and I didn't read that text. And I like the point you brought out to to take a game that just uses the basic idea of Mario. But you can reverse time to make us have to impel This discussion between us is quite a feat. So I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna say the same thing I said with death Stranding. It's just not fun. It's not fun like that matter. Well, I actually I want to dial it back a little bit because it is a little fun, Like the puzzling is a little fun for a while, and then it gets difficult to a point where it feels obtu. Here's why I want to bring elden Ring back again. Actually, I have a feeling we'll be talking about elden Ring in reference to the absolutely years, but um elden Ring and from soft generally epitomizes that feeling of frustration yielding to a sudden, sharp stab of I did that, and I get that from solving these puzzles, and I get that flood I whatever, I don't And I think I think it's because I enjoy competitive things more than uh. I think it's the reward. It's the competitive piece that's missing achievement orient right, right, So like these are perfect counterparts in a sense for or the thing that triggers in the brain, you know. I mean where we really overlap is when when it has an emotionally effective story like then that's actually our point of most overlap as as game and consumers, I think, which is interesting because this game, as I said, you have to solve every single puzzle in order to climb the ladder to the attic and get the ending, which actually feels like draconian lee extremely hard, right, is comparable to eld and race philosophy, where it's like fuck you, like this piece of art is abstract and obtuse. Jonathan Blow has done a bunch of interviews where he's like, I'm not going to explain it. I'm not going to tell you what it means. Um, yeah, it's pretty up its own little bit being being an excess little bit, and like, but I see again the tour in me is like, yeah, I don't want to take that away from him though, especially especially not when it's when it's his game and he's like one guy doing it and he went into his own pocket, and like it's like, look let him. That's what it is. If you want to say that's too hard, well you make a game, man, you know what I mean. It's a self indulgent thing. He made it himself, So let him spend three million making another Mario game, you know what I mean. Like, that's different anyway, please continue. Oh, I was just gonna point out the variety of ways that So the reversal, the simple time reversal, which is very similar to like if you've played Prince of Persia sands. Um. Yeah, and and in fact, we did a recent episode where Adam I believe nominated this to be in mortgage. I think it's really cool. I think this is the future. This is the best use of it I've seen too, Like it's it's her home run as an that's saying something. Yeah, it's really good. So World three is not everything reverses. It introduces that component. Um. World four is your position determines what time it is, which is hard to describe, but when you play, it's almost the very first iteration of what fuels a game like Super Hot, uh, which Braid technically did first, which is time only flows when you're moving. And that's that's mind blowing to me to realize Braid did super but it moves in the in the direction you're moving. It can move forward or back. Super Hot triggers time forward. Yeah. Um, super Hot great and its own super super World four Sorry no World five time shadows, which was the idea of you do irun and then you reverse and then your shadow does what you just did and you can interact with it. In world six, my favorite of all, because it's just so poetically imagistically appropriate, your wedding ring creates a local gravity well. So to me, that totally resonates with the idea that, uh, welding your life to someone I was getting married has this gravitas to it, right, and the feeling of time slows down here this is our private space, this is this point of union. Of course, it's a gravity well. That's so perfect that the wedding ring is a gravity well. Um, you know, potentials solidify into manifest outcomes around the wedding ring. It's so fucking good, dude, and it is very um physics minded and there's just a lot of symbology going. You have to appreciate the the story sensibility that's imbibed in the mechanic. Like it's it's a little more obvious than say the first person shooting of BioShock, you know, like it's but it's the same kind of like ingenious re uh sort of repurposing of a like narrative, repurposing of a tool. It's the same kind of genius there. I mean, and I think I'm being pretty generous here because it's really just a little platform game, but it's it's like why, it's very impressive on an idea level, you know, like a good Fallout game. Like the last level, which is called Braid. This is the first time I think I understood the title is the first time you have to cooperate because you have to rely on the Princess at certain portions in order to proceed. And so it calls to mind the idea that a marriage is a braiding together of your time, your perceptual experience as it proceeds forward, your braiding of your d n a eventually in the form of children, if you have children, you know what I mean. Like I was like, oh, that's the Braid. It's the weaving together of two lives into one life on the relationship, and it's and it's embodied by the literal gameplay that you're living through. That image is is a reference to a passage from the New Testament, like three Chords, but I think it's New Testament. It's like three Chords and the Wall of Flame to the time shadows and yes, yes, the Gospel of Sway oh do you know what do you know? The action? It's it's it's two are better than one of a chord of three strands cannot be broken. I want to say it's a thing that's often used to refer to marriage. I don't remember exactly the passage, but but just the idea of braid as metaphor from us absolutely. Uh yeah, I don't know exactly where it might be Old Testament. Forgive me those of you who know better. But yeah, so he's drawing on that, there's no question. And uh. Oh. Also, I didn't want to get through the whole episode without mentioning that the score is incredibly emotionally evocative and game wouldn't work if the score wasn't very like lonely feeling, so it needed Okay, so this, Oh don't like this. I didn't like the art of it. I didn't like the art. I don't I was avoiding bringing it up because the arts mediocre. Yeah, and I well, and uh but the music you didn't like it? Okay, it's okay, Like it feels very um, it feels sort of it's melancholy in a good way. Now it's fine. There's nothing wrong with the music. It's just it combined with the soundscape and like the limitations as a platform er. It had a more dour effect on me than the thing that it's satirizing, which is Mario games, because Mario games are like like the music just pumps you up immediately and not like energy pumps you up. Just like this is fun, you know. I mean, like that's one of the things they're so good. That's what I think they're so good at. And this was like it's just like kind of theory, yeah right, good fun and sometimes a really catchy, memorable tune, you know what I mean. And this is not really catchy, not really memorable, not really fun, you know. So it's like, uh, you know, but I I dare you to home any portion of the Mario theme. It's completely get here, which one of the ten we all know get out of here, And I can't. It's true. I can't home any part of any piece of Braid music. All I can say is that it was good enough that I wrote down the note like this gives me a lonely contemplative feeling that I don't think the game would work with I agree with that, it's with that it's appropriately paired with the game I like, for instance, like I think the soundtrack and Death Stranding is a better version of the same experience. You remember how we talked about that and I was like, yeah, man, soundtrack does rip, uh, because I like it's actually stronger music. Um, that's just that's a nitpick. And I'm sorry to the composer who did a wonder better than I could ever do. So don't hear me disparaging your work. It's just that, man, we're comparing it to Mario. You know, I don't see it. Um, I don't see it. But that person can't do a video games podcast. So that's right, that's right, unto their season, you know. Yeah, more power to them. Um. Yeah, I just didn't. I didn't think the music. Uh. I think it was the correct tone, but I didn't think it was like super memorable or good, just like the soundscape, just like the artwork, just like the actual platforming. They were all kind of a little below like a little mid to below tier for me. Yeah, which you know is a dumb reason not to Like you've said enough nice things. Yeah, it's what's it's And oh another one though, is to me that I loved that and and I think this is why this whole mechanic appeals to you at all, by virtue of the fact that it uses the rewind rather than death animation and restart. This was the first game I was ever exposed to ever that technically had zero load time. Yeah right, Yeah, your flow of play is never ever interrupted ever because you're rewinding, and then the the very micro second you stopped rewinding, you're playing again. Like, look, the guy is a Dan Harmon, you know what I mean, Like, he's a real innovator and an important voice, and he came from out of nowhere, you know. It's it's awesome. I like, I played The Witness, which I didn't even like, and but I still didn't I still had to say again, can't stress enough didn't like it, But I was like, well, this isn't one of a kind experience, and I'm kind of tempted to go back and play it again, um, out of respect for this guy's talent, because it's it's just so striking. Um. Sure did you get to the second tear of puzzles? If that guy's like, did you understand the meta puzzle? Uh? I mean, if you mean putting the puzzle pieces together to see what the story was about. Then yes, no, no, no, in Witness, Oh no, I don't think I did. I think we only did. Yeah, there's a there's a I played like two hours and you were watching it. Oh there's no way you get it. Yeah, yeah, no, I we played. I played like two hours and I was like, this is not the right game, and you were watching me stream it and you could see he's not enjoying this. Uh yeah, I mean I'm gonna I'm gonna try some of these missed games over the next year or two to see if I can they can finally hook me, because you know, I know people love them and I know they matter in game history, and this one seems like a it seems like an easier introduction. But I can't promise I'll love it, you know, because so far I haven't. Uh yeah. Unfortunately, I wanted to do missed in VR, but then I realized I actually needed to take physical notes with a notepad and pencil in order to solve the fucking puzzles. They're so hard. So I started playing. I went back to just normal. So again, like uh, we talked in a previous episode about the balloon race mechanic from Mario from Mario Odyssey. I think that I think that's a good indicator of the difference between these kind of puzzles and like the things that I like about platforming that are also puzzles, Like those are movement puzzles. That's what they are. It's like, what eight combinations of things I have to do to get there in this amount of time? And I find that thrilling. But again, it might just be the competitive edge to it, you know, um and because because it's really about the limitations of your ability your talent as a gamer, and these aren't that I'll do competitive Braid levels with you, dude. We'll start at the same You'll crush me at that. You will crush me at that, you know, which, Hey, if that's what we need to do, let's do it. But uh, let's do it. You're like, yeah, we need to do it. Yeah, we're doing that. No, you'll you'll crush me at that, but I'll still try it. Well, there's I'm wondering what video games I would crush you at. There's a very slim number. Braid would be one of them. If you can compete at brains ill there was because I poured so much time into it, I might still have the old reflexes. I was very good at soul caliber too. How are you a soul I don't know if I've ever even played it. Yes, I think I might own you. So it sounds like we gotta get that one. We're gonna We're gonna co op some tie fighter, aren't we. Isn't that one of our plans? I guess yeah. We're doing regular streams. Uh. If I knew more information about that, I would plug the details. At the time of this recording, we're still setting up our streaming system, but we're definitely going to try and stream more regularly. So look for that. Um, it sounds like you've blasted through your brain notes, have you, because I've blasted through. I mean, unless the shadow me has new things to say, I would say we can move on. I did want to do a very quick plug for a very old cracked video, which norm I was gonna do that too. Let's put let's let's put it on the other side of the break, because I think we'll reminisce about that a little bit. So to hear about a funny YouTube video that you could be enriching your life with Stay tuned and we'll be right back with more one ups. Mention fiches. What you like this bit, You're gonna be doing it a lot. I just want you to know you're gonna do it occasionally from time to time. And uh, well it's appropriate for Braid. Come on, I do it for I'm not offended. I'm just pointing it out to you. That's so funny though. I also was going to mention I assume Cody's video, Yes, yes, go ahead, please explain. So this is, by the way, my first exposure to Braid. Uh so our pal Cody, who is also on this network with a couple of podcasts he does even more and yeah, um he and we work together at correct. He at a video probably even before he started there called Game Help and Squad. He was a series, and he did one that was basically a Braid a bunch of jokes about Braid. And he's a video game tutorial guy explaining how to play this game that's very clearly based on Braid. And all I'll say about it is, uh, what an excellent voice he's doing, and how dumb he makes these games seem like he really does. And it's great, it's very charming. I think it's in the top five funniest things code he's ever done for my Yeah, because if you know Cody, you know he is a comedian who's worked in the industry his entire life and is very, very funny. Um, this is probably one of my favorite Cody things. It's very uh, it's very much a thing only he could do. Uh, even though like it seems very obvious in retrospect, but it's like, yeah, but only Cody would have done it because of the time involved and the way it looks and a bunch of things. So yeah, just plugging that video. Are we ready across that final checkpoint, my friend? That's right into that great hard drive horizon where all games either burned ash or elevate into celestial permanence. Will this game rub virtual shoulders with Elden Ring and Breath of the Wild? Or will it be discarded like Forgotten City? Surely will and when we get around to that, when we get around to revising it. A great indie game, though, great indie game. Um, but here comes another great indie game, and we'll see how much room there is for indie games on the celestial hard drive. Given that it only has one slots, but also important to note it's not full yet, so we still have a got open slots to fill you out. So the pressure is not really there yet. But god willing, will still be doing this podcast a few years from now, and it will be over stuffed and every time we do this segment it will be excruciating, excruciating, and we'll have to clean stuff out every like six months or something exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it's gonna be a nightmare. I hope you'll join us for all of it. So yeah, I'll go first. That will keep the dramatic tension. Sure, I'm gonna keep it. Obviously I was gushing, I was slobbering all over it. So yeah, I'm keeping braid. Three strands woven into one cannot be broken. At him, I agree that you gotta keep it. Yeah, in that same place, you know, the one. Uh yeah, so his eyes are darting back and forth. So, by the way, if you check out like, uh lists of like games where people like like top hundreds and stuff, this game doesn't appear on it on very many, which I find surprising, um, because if you're trying to represent mechanics and game games and innovation in games and fresh experiences, or even just sort of commentary or satire. I don't know how it gets much better than this. I really don't like. It's like, if you think Mario matters and spoilers, he does. Uh, this game also matters because he said something about that that meant something and reinvented video games while he did it. And he and it's one guy who did it by himself. That's amazing. It's got to be on the hard drive. I gotta keep it, I think. I yeah, it belongs, and I'm sprinkling some green sparkles on it, so we can never undo that even time now it belongs Like I would, I would get rid of Forgotten City I liked. I liked Inside a lot, So I don't make me pitch those two against each other. Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to cut that. But there's other games that we've we've approved that. I like Mortal Kombat and throw that at right out one Mortal Kombat one we haven't. We kept eleven. I would keep right over a level because I know I rate is really important. Uh, Like, I'm sure that there's some preda like proto version of these mechanics that people think are really important, and I'm not saying they're not, but the thought process about how these elements are combined is unique and matters. So I gotta stay on nice. Yeah. Well, I'm pleased we could reach a chord on that me too, highly unusual when it comes to an endie game. Absolutely, but we're gonna be covering more of them because we want to have a wide breadth of experience on that. Can I throw three at you? Did I hope we ever cover? Sure, let's see if I've even heard of him. Let's let's I really hope we eventually cover Stanley Parable Ultra to the right. We talked about that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, Torment Tides of New Minera. Okay, I don't know that one. Uh, gone Home, Gone Home. We're gonna cover that, right, No, I was going to say the Flame in the Flood. Oh, I don't know if I've played that now, Yeah, I'm not sure. Okay, Tormental, I'll put these on a list somewhere. Stanley Parable is quick anyway, that's a topic for another day. H Adam, Why don't you tell them where they can find all the rest of this Iceberg because one offsmanship is just the tippity tip. Well, first of all, if you liked this, you can always check into your local I heeart venue for tons and tons of back episodes. If this is your first time with us, we've been covering video games for quite some time and we're gonna keep doing it, god willing until the sun explodes. If you're for five, yeah, But if you're like I'd like to hear other ideas or topics that these two talk about, maybe even separately from each other, great news. We do that on a Patreon called patreon dot com Forward Slash Small Beans. You can hear all kinds of podcasts, in fact, over a dozen different ones, arranging in topics from the sharing of media to film reviews to depression to um and and you know, dealing with that, and to science too, you know, no, dealing with it, just just depression. What's that, Bielberg? So many, so many different topics. We hope you feel like going down there to check that out, and if you feel like it, tosses a buck or two. But otherwise we'll be here, uh, streaming your favorite video games and talking about them until time finally does run out. For us if it ever does, because we've got the wedding right. That's right. Maybe we've got our handy dandy shift keys. I like that. I like this little wormhole we found. Uh a mike or anything to add to that. No work, don't bleat fo