Michael and Adam are joined by Ubisoft host and producer Youssef Maguid to discuss a huge turning point in the Assassin’s Creed franchise, and, dare we say, history? A lively conversation ensues about what makes this entry essential, the meticulous crafting of Ptolemaic Egypt, and whether the changes were good or bad for the series. Mount your camel and zip directly to your destination…Fun! Seriously, those camels have an incredible auto-travel feature!
Oh, listen, jeesus, it's a flack of tie. Welcome to One Upsmanship. It's the coolest name for like, it's better than Bobby, it's better than Copper. It is a lack of Tieuh. You could probably already guess what game we're discussing on today's episode of One Upsmanship ship Heads. Welcome. Welcome. I'm Michael Swain. That's Adam Ganzer. Yeah, good to be here with you, Adam, great to be here. I enjoy how every one of your intros is a is a gift and a surprise to me every time. I never know what it's gonna be, and I love it every time. It's easy to surprise people when you just pull the first thing off the top of your head. The surfaces usually not that predictable. Yep, Um, this is a gaming podcast where pals talk about games. Uh, usually in a very I would say, air you die, yeah, jovial manner. Occasionally it's a train wreck nightmare where we're at each other's throats. But I don't think it'll be that way today. Nahum, So if you're here for the crashes, yes, skip to the next episode, um, because today we're talking ac origins that's right, Assassin's Creed origins. We sure, and we have oh a brand new guests, new face on one Upsmanship. I'm so excited to have with us um from Ubisoft writer and host mister Yusef McGee. Welcome, Yusuf, welcome, Thank you, thank you, Michael, thank you, Adama. No one told me I needed to be aird uh and so you're you're throwing that on me mid recording. That's a lot of pressure. But I'm gonna do my best. I'm doing us and keep bubble. Y'all were real gun slingers around one ups. It's a lot of off the cuff. Yeah. I don't want you to feel stressed or put on the spot, but if if your air addition level falls below a certain point, a clackson will sound and there will be punishments. So just listen for the clackson. Yeah naturally. Okay, all right, so let's dive Ryan into format on this show. That means we're passing a checkpoint. Boom, boom, there's that sound, which means where in it's our first segment, which we call tell me like I made bit. Now, if you're new to the show, this is where we ask the guests traditionally to take us quickly and in the barst of nutshells through what is Assassin's Creed Origins? And I like to say, like, pretend you're describing it to your like early seventies aunt, like someone who does not know what the game is at all, So not the nitty gritty, but like, what's Assassin Creed Origins? Refresh our memories? Please use of absolutely So. Assassin's Creed Origins is a game that takes place in Ptolemaic Egypt during the reign of Cleopatra, where you play as Baiak, who is the last magi who's almost a peacekeeper of sorts in Egypt, and you have to deal with the tragic death of your son, and through that you uncover a conspiracy that takes Baiak and his wife Ayah throughout all of Egypt and throughout major moments in history and meeting major characters and you know, famous historical figures like Cleopatra, like Julius Caesar Um and full encounter. He actually, he actually might be. He's in the game more than I think you might be remembering. He's isn't it about five hours? But you only talk to him or see him like I don't know, like twenty minutes Max, Like you don't spend a ton of time with him. No, you don't spend a ton of time with him. And then yeah, there is a particularly so that leads us to, like, everyone needs to know we are going to spoil this game. You had six out six years to play it, so you know, if you haven't yet, though, you might want to skip at least when we talk about the story stuff because we will be spoiling the game. Yeah, just now, it was beautifully down. Although I know Ganza is gonna want to chime in and give the basics of the mechanics because that's his jam, right. Um, I'm happy too. So although you did an amazing job and thank you for that. Um just briefly, you guys all know Assassin's Creed probably it's the stealth uh you know, ninja third person action to game. This game is unique in that it moved away from the traditional format of Assassin's Creed and added, um some RPG elements including you know, I think some light crafting and also upgrading your weaponry in a way that was not just purchasing new weapons but also like different variety of weapons and stuff. You've got a lot more expansive. They put numbers over people's hit boxes and stuff. Like we're talking, there's a lot more complex in general, Destiny. I noticed Destiny picked up on that, like if you have a favorite weapon esthetically, you can keep feeding stuff to it. Yeah. Correct, Yeah, So climb anywhere, I think is the huge or you know, all the way back to Assassin's Creed one and two, that was the huge mind blowing advance at the time. Climb anywhere, climb on anything that, jump around, hide from people, stab them. Cool. Let's pass another checkpoint, which means the world has dissolved into a wobbly grid and we're waking up in a tomb. And that takes us to our segment we call gamer rants, where we basically chime in with our emotional you know how this game hit for us. It's sort of just a first blush our take on the game. It's place in our life or you know, in our experience with the franchise or what have you. Adam, can I go first? Okay, I want to, because player one plugging in. I have a pretty clear and concise rant this time with no major hot takes unless I guess you unless you. I mean, I'm sure people do strongly feel about AC two or various acs, but um, this is the one for me. Like I'm I'm glad we're covering it. This is actually my perfect Assassin's Creed well, and I'm excited to talk about it for that reason. And I have lots of reasons to unpack why I feel that way. I don't dislike like things after this Odyssey or Valhalla, but there is a level of, um, you know, game's got to meet you where you're at or whatever. I'm like close to forty now. If I was nineteen and I only had so much money and I cared how much money I put into a game, and I had unlimited time, I'd be so down for something like Odyssey because I can do it forever and ever and ever and ever, and it's you know, a lot of bang for your buck. But where I'm at in my life now with this was my major takeaway playing at this time is it's like it's just the amount of complexity that's perfect for me that does feel engaging. It really it's it thoroughly feels like a fully developed game with all the do dads and all the different ways to micromanage each thing to whatever degree you want, and yet it doesn't quite overwhelm me to the degree that the scope of like Odyssey and Valhalla personally, for me, I got like a third of the way through, and I'm like, this is just too much. I just have too much other stuff to do. I ran out of time with this game. Origins I'm able to complete, even though the world map still feels hugely expansive and the story is very involving. I really like buy it. I genuinely think he's like the for my money, one of the charming, more likable AC protagonists we've ever gotten. I think it nails boat combat, which obviously everyone loves so much that they're doing Skull and Bones now and Black Flag was so popular. But for my money, again, I guess I'm just the middle road type of guy. But like, I think Origins has just the right amount of boat combat without too much. I actually found that, Like I think Skull and Bones will be boring, I don't want to do that kind of boat combat eternally, like I don't want that to be the core loop interstally, but I love doing it as a departure from the normal Assassins Creek formula. So it's just like, I don't know, man, I also love Egyptian culture. I love the desert personally. I'm hugely like I grew up in the desert and go desert camping a lot, so I think the terrain is remarkably striking and beautiful. I love the way the people look like. I just love that era and the water. I guess I'll end on the water. That green gold water that they capture in this game is for my money. Still, I was playing it again, I was like, you know, we've made advancements in facial animation and body animation. Everyone does kind of look like any animatronic by my modern standards are like if I compare to like Last of Us two or something, But the water has not been beat for me. And I don't even mean that there's not technically ever been a more complex physics engine to render water what have you. I don't know about that, Like maybe Horizons water engine is technically better, but I think the water I don't know. Maybe people think this is weird I'm harping on it, but the water in Assassin's Creed Origins is generally a source of like beauty and comfort to me. The whole time I'm playing the game, I'm like, look at that water. It looks so inviting, and I hate how thirsty all the boatmen are to come let you borrow their boats, because I'm like, no, man, I'm good swimming. It's a beautiful day. I want to swim across the nile right now. That is one of my favorite things that if you are swimming for long enough, someone on a boat will come just like get to you, and it's like, please steal my boat. Yeah, it's obviously like, hey, you probably want a boat, but it's also like I'd like to imagine it was like there, you know, some some you know boatman out there saw this guy swimming for miles stranded and thought, hey, I should go pick them up. That's right. It's it's a kind culture. Its culture. Yeah. Well, also, I mean, just a quick note on that, I think this is one of the only ones where you really can swim a lot to other destinations seas a blake or one of the first ones. Just a quick note on that. So that's a uh yeah, so I'm basically done. But yeah, I also think it's notable of course, and the reason it's called Origins is that we get the origin of the Assassins, and I think it's actually fairly well handled. You don't. You kind of forget that it's that that's where we're driving, and when it comes up, you're like, oh, that actually all makes sense. Oh yeah, yeah yeah. So okay, so this is the first one. Oh they're the Assassins now neat um So I like that angle. I feel like that does make it feel like an important entry in the series, and I just think it shows a lot of love and care and gosh, I've played through it three or four times and I have a whole lot of fun with it. Um there's more, but I'll save it. That's the end of my rant. Traditionally, we ask the guests to go second, if you if you're up for it, yeah, you know, I think I'd like to go last. Okay, fantastic, Okay, sat the best for last? Then? Uh yeah, probably is. Then I will go next Player two Adam Ganzer plugging in. Um okay, so, uh, this is a very good game, I think, and um, I actually did not play the first Assassins Creed RPG. This is not my first one. I played Odyssey first, um, which I like better as a game for reasons I won't waste our time into. But I think as a story in a setting, this is probably my favorite Assassin's Creed. Egypt as a setting is exactly why Assassin's Creed needs to exist. Like the joy of Assassin's Creed for me is reconstructing some version that's quasi realistic of the past that rules, and the idea of sort of skipping around in these old cities is awesome, and there is no more intriguing place to me than Egypt. My only point of contention about it is I'm kind of wished that they hadn't settled on this era of Egypt. I know why they did, but I wish they'd gone further back into the past into like you know, the Pharaohs and stuff and Ramses and all that before they were occupied by the Greeks, just because I feel like that's really more where human history begins, and I'd like to think of the Assassins as being an organization that was always connected to human history and really would be the evil colonizer with thousands of soldiers they kill, and you're like you're cutting off you know, three thousand years of history by saying that Assassin's Creed starts here, and more importantly, perhaps you're making Assassin's Creed as a franchise and as a movement more about European civilization than it needs to be by starting here. You know, Like, I think that's actually and it's not that I think that's like the worst thing in the world. It's just that, like, look, you started with a point where this is about the Roman occupation and the spread of Rome. That means we're gonna be based around Western civilization for the most part. Okay, But like I'd like to play an Assassin's Creed game that takes place in you know, with the Aztecs or something, you know, or the income doesn't even reference, right, I don't see why that can't happen. And I think this decision makes that now they have to violate their canon to do that, unless they have some some crafty thing that I didn't think of. And look, this game is loose enough with story and not just this game of the franchise that I think they can get around it. But I just I think that's I don't that decision bums me out just a little bit. It because I love what Assassin's Creed does. It gives me a reason to like rethink about things that happened in the past. That's that's fantastic. Now, Okay, so here's probably the biggest spoiler, and I'm just gonna get it out up front. This game is clearly structured around the idea of making the assassins get basically solidified and borne by assassinating Julius Caesar. Cool idea totally makes sense. It was telegraphed the minute Julius Caesar set foot in this plot. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, so this the assassin's assassinated Julius Caesar, got it and it rules. Man, it's the end of the game and it's fantastic. And of course Assassin's Creed needed to start there until we get the one where they revealed John Wilkes Booth as an assassin. Every cool assassination is going to be tied up into this, and I'm gonna use cool and very loosely here. So but that does lead me to I do like Biack, but I kind of think that I was a more interesting character um and had there there was more depth that was unexplored with her. And I feel like maybe we didn't go with her as the protagonist because we still weren't ready to do a strictly female story and Assassin's Creed we're still kind of have an arcake and eating it too on that subject. And this is the one time it's like, well, wait a minute, the most important thing in the game is about her, and she's kind of a tangential character in a lot of ways. And that's a mistake to me, but not a huge one, just a minor one that I'm like, ah, come on, I wish you guys would just go for it on this. The RPG stuff is a fun detour. It's done pretty well here. I think it was perfected in Odyssey, but I still prefer the other system of Assassin's Creed. I find that more repeatable and replayable. But I'll just repeat there has never been a cooler environment to scale than ancient Egypt. Like I, yes, man, I love that, thank you. That's yeah, come on man, yeah, sliding down the pyramids. That's what I want out of video games. And thank you for doing it, because that's what makes the franchise awesome. They should always be trying to do that kind of shit and like, thank god they're doing it. Assassin's Creed has its flaws. This is one of the highlights. That's my rant. Can I ask just for clarity of the listener, but also because I'm kind of fuzzy or like forgetting no no, no, uh, what would you before you consider before in the time, before you consider Assassin's Creed too, have had RPG elements, What was the system? Do you improve over time or you just start good? Well, first of all, one, it's this this franchise is closer to a combat oriented interface, like sort of and I use this lightly like a Dark Souls, right, it's a little bit more like getting in there. I see a lot of Tsushima and yeah, also, yeah, I feel like it's more like that the previous system that has objectively worse combat, but there's a lot less of it, Like it's really not about combat as much as it is. It's more traversal and stealth puzzle solving. And I think that they sort of slowly moved away from it. And in like, in my opinion and also in some aspects, Egypt is not the most climbable place they've been either, you know, I mean they sort of just moving away from that part of it, and they got completely away from that part of it in Valhalla in my opinion. But I don't want to digress too much. That's how I'm distinguishing between the two. I'm happy to RPG, meaning I'm big focus on making the number stuff like that. There was not a consideration before as much. Anyway, I want to turn it over to our illustrious guest if I may, Oh, yeah, no, thank you. UM. I love hearing y'all talk about that, and I think, yeah, I can speak to a little bit of it, um or have thoughts at least on a little bit of it. But I'll start with my take. For those who don't know, I am Egyptian. M So. An Assassin's Creed is my favorite franchise in games, has been since AC one in two thousand and seven. Um So, in a lot of ways, this game is incredibly special to me. UM. I was working at Ubisoft when it came out. It was the first Assassins Creed that launched. UM when I started, since I started working now, it was it was amazing. Um And you know, when we talk about favorites and things like that, I don't know, I you know, depending on what day of the week it is, I'll say this is my favorite, this is my favorite, this is my favorite. UM. Unequivocally, the most important Assassin's Creed to me is Assassin's Creed Origins. UM. It is in many ways, I think a game like Odyssey is quote unquote maybe my perfect game, because there is still part of me that is that nineteen year olds that wants, you know, a two hundred hour game with everything to do in the world. UM. But I always say that Assassin's Creed Origins is the game I never thought I would get. UM. And one of the first things I ever wrote in my editorial job at Ubisoft was how Assassin's Creed Origins made me feel accepted as the Egyptian UM. And there's a scene very early on where you're playing is obviously you're you're playing is Baiak, and you come across one of your friends, a man named Hepsepha, who is you know, fighting UM fighting some guards and and you know, you join the fight, you save him UM, and afterwards there's a cut scene and it's Biak and Hepsepha. They embrace us like brothers, and they're they're just they're they're talking, and they're they're riding back to their town of Seewa um and it's you know, I think for you know, ninety nine point nine percent of gamers who played that, it's just a regular old introduction to a character. Um. And to me, I cried when I first played that, because it was the first time I'd ever seen in almost any media, not just video games, that there was an Egyptian hero and there was another Egyptian character there. And they weren't villains, they weren't side characters, they weren't side things or something. Yeah, they weren't stereotyped, they weren't cliche, they were just they were two Egyptian men embracing each other as normal characters. And to me, that is what I love so much about this game is that, from start to finish, this game so wholly embraced Egypt and Egyptian culture and Egyptian people, and it was it was absolutely foundational to everything this game did and how it changed from the previous ac formula and all the new things that it brought, um, you know what, which which I'm sure we'll talk about, but to me, it all starts with the fact that this game decided to make you know, Egyptians, um in the Egyptian people, it decided to treat them with so much respect. And I think the time period even gets into that because there is this you know, Greek influence, there is this Roman occupation and it and the game goes out of its way to show you that Egyptians were very much second class citizens in their own country during this time. Um. And it shows the plight that they went through. Um and and it's it's one of the things, um. You know, we go to tollmaking Egyptian obviously because there's there's famous historical figures there. All of the monuments have been built, so that means that you can explore all those monuments. But at the same time, it's it tells this story in this this perspective in history that I think gets lost. Right. You hear about Cleopatra all the time, who is half Greek. You hear about Julius Caesar all the time, who is Roman. But you don't you know, history is taught at least in the US very you know linearly. You know, you're you're sort of taught that. Okay, there's there are the Sumerians and then there are the Egyptians, and then there are the Greeks, and then there are the Romans, right, and it's it's like, oh, you know, once we get to the Greeks, then you know, then you know, the Egyptians were gone whatever. You know, we get to the Romans and you know, we're already focused on them. There's this way in US history that it's at least you know, when I was coming up in school and um, in my public school education, where things are taught very much through the lens of this like intense microscope where you're just zooming in and onto one culture and you're not thinking about the greater civilizations at play and the way they intermingle and intertwine with one another. And so I really appreciated that this game said, Hey, no, this is you know, this is a world. This is the time where you know, in in Turn of the you know, uh, turn of the millennia, right, I believe it's forty seven BC. Um, this is the time normally you would talk about Rome, right, Julius Caesar is I don't know about you, and then um, but it's showing that hey, nope, Egypt was this jewel of the Mediterranean at the time that that had so much interest from so many different civilizations, and that this game decided to embrace that and say, Okay, we're going to talk about Egyptian culture, Egyptian religion, Egyptian society, how they were treated in their own country by by foreigners. That to me just made it all so so so special. Well, man, just really quick, because I don't want to I don't want to move on until I've asked you this question. How do you feel about it as a game in the franchise? Like, how do you feel about the gameplay piece in the franchise? Just curious? I think you know, I share a lot of the sentiments both of both of you echoed and which Um, you know, this was AC stepping into new territory, and you know, this was the first time the franchise had taken a year off since AC two. It had been annualized from two thousand and nine to twenty fifteen, and so the team at Ubisoft Montreal took a year off after AC Syndicate, and we're reinventing the franchise to a certain extent. Um And I think you you, I think I saw you know a lot of the reasons, um that this game made the decisions that it made, so you know, as you said, Adam, that the combat was completely reworth right. The combat wasn't really necessarily the star of the show, um in the earlier games, and they instead of going from a paired animation system in the previous ones, they went to a hip box system that was you know, quote unquote more more dark Soulsium Climbing also had to change because again you're in a much more rural setting. There's there's far less uh you know, buildings around, and you know, a one and two you know introduced. I always like to think of it as Assassin Creed adding the Z access into video games in a way that that games hadn't really before. UM. And I think Origins took that to the next level in which like, okay, no, you could really climb anything. You know. In the previous games you could climb any building basically, but you were often you know, a cliff side, you know, like uh, you know, mossy terrain anything like that. Like you played Black Flag and you go to the islands and you can't climb everything there. Um. But Origins said, hey, no, we're gonna let you climb everything. Um. And and you know it's partially because hey, you know there are the cities are few and farm between, and we need a way for you to explore. Um. And you know, this was the year that Breath of the Wild came out, and you know that game let you climb climb everything too, and so, UM, I think it was it was introducing these new open world mechanics and playing around with them. Um, you know, at a time where that was still very new in in open world games. That's a good point. Um, well, I want to send a real quickly to the break so that we can get back and start our next segment where we all get to talk about all the points that were raised. I think there's a lot of great stuff here. So we'll see you on the other side of some ads and we're back, which means it's time for us to pass yet another checkpoint and get into I know Mike's favorite segments game on. This is where we can interrupt each other at will to discuss all the doing stuff. Yeah, you are just like I wanted you to, exactly as the prophecies foretold. So I just wanted to launch with this question like, which I know is a little bit generic, but is this our favorite Assassin's Creed for setting? It seems like we all said that is that where we Is that what we think? I? Well, yeah, if I may interrupt, and also keying off of what Yusuf said on the other side of the break, I feel like the setting is potentially rendered with the most love and it's just a feeling I get and I and he mentioned respect, and I really feel that. I will say this about the entire franchise for the most part, and I think it's in its favor Ubisoft seems to When I play in Assassin's Creed, it feels like a very involved book report on a culture time period. And I mean that in a good way, in the sense that it's not just like God of War is literally taking you know, whatever pantheon it wants, and this is also a legitimate form of whatever, whatever storytelling or whatever, but it's just different. They're taking bits and pieces from whatever and saying, well, in our world, thors like this who care like we're changing it all. It's whatever it is, and the point is for it to be cool and badass and exciting, and of course Assassin's Creed wants to be all those things. Entertaining and engaging, etc. But Ubisoft does actually seem to care about um No, you're gonna learn a bit about the culture. That is if you looked it up, historically accurate. And I don't see a lot of other franchises based in the past even caring about that at all. And I find it refreshing, and it's true of most of them, but I will say I feel it the most in Origins, Like even Valhalla, I feel like, yeah, you get a smattering of what it would be like to be a Viking. But um, I feel like in Origins, I learned so much, even down to like the little details of cultural nuance of like Yusuf was mentioning or you know, from the time they embrace into like seeing how people live and eat and work. It's just like it's very filled with Now, this is going to be super hokey, but it really feels like history come alive. That's the that's the pitch, and that's the pitch of Assassin's Creed And it's so funny to me that it's also but so video gaming and human and you'll get to kill everyone there. That is, that's it's a fun way to go through history. I think it says a lot about the world and the research that the team did in the paint and saking detail that they put into the world. That Assassin's Creed Origins was the first game to then launch, um, you know what what we yourself called, you know, the Discovery Tour, which is an additional, add on, standalone experience that takes the game world as it was in the you know, in Assassin's Creed, and it completely pacifies it. It makes it conflicts free, and it turns it into a museum. It just it includes that. You know, the first game Discovery Tour Ancient Egypt was like had seventy guided tours that were all fully voiced and you know, it broken up into different you know, topics of religion, society, arc, texture, everything like that. And you know it's because they had this world. And I've actually I've actually interviewed professional archaeologists and professors at universities who are using Assassin's Creed and Discovery Tour to teach because by their estination, it is the best three dimensional recreation of Tolmaic Egypt. That's so yeah, sure, I mean that's incredible. Just a quick quick point on that Yeah. So this is also the last time that Assassin's Creed took took the setting and allowed it to just be a historical place and not also magic, you know what I mean. Like Odyssey and Valhalla, they started to like allow stuff like minotaurs and things like that to exist that I don't think they justified, right, which is to say, they felt some license to play around with the historicity of those places, but they didn't feel it here, and I think that was good that they took. It's also interesting about any franchise like AC that's so storied for so long, with so many entries, that has a formula and loop that they don't want to get too far from because it wouldn't be the thing anymore. But also they're trying to keep it fresh, and there's so many elements to any game, including Assassin's Creed. It's just interesting to watch how each little on each level things can get tweaked up and down. Right, even though we talk about the franchise being known for climbing anywhere as you used to pointed out like this was the first truly climb anywhere one And I think it's interesting how every time they sort of refine or pick. What do we mean by climb anywhere? Because it means slightly different things mechanically. In almost every Assassin's Creed, it doesn't always mean and again, and this is why this one's my favorite. It's just sheered by sheer chance in some regards. All the choices they made this time are like that car with that options is the one I would pick. I don't know why I lucked out, and this one's just the one for me. But it is down to the climbing like that. The climbing in origins still involves some figuring out of a three dimensional puzzle in the loosest sense, which is what I always call like Prince of Persia climbing U versus. There have been Assassin's Creeds which are just hold acts and move in a direction, and you will go forward in that direction and you'll get to your destination. I just think everything in this game is perfectly It as like the moderate path, Like there's some difficulty to the climbing, so you have to be engaged, but it's not complicated, and like everything is like that nice happy medium which just really works from so I totally get what you're saying too, because like there is there's like you know, the light House of Alexandria some one of the first big monuments that that you know, I really remember in that game that you climb in like that is one of those things words. It is a flush, you know, like smooth surface. There are no handholds there, right, You're not climbing up any way you want. There is a a kind of a way up there, a gamified way up there, much like past Assassin's Creed and how how you would have to climb buildings then same with you know, same with the pyramids, but then smaller scale things, you know, natural cliff sides. I think the game just kind of realized, hey, no, like we we want players to be able to traverse this freely and like and I love I know exactly what you mean Michael when you say like this is the moderate version. Um. This is like the kind of like happy medium between you know what you know what maybe honestly and Vold I will do and what the old days he's did. Um, Because you know, so, I I was an architect, um before I got into games. I went to picture one. Um. Part of the reason I love Assassin's Creed so much. UM. But One of the things that I remember Professor telling me is, you know when we were when we were sketching and drawing buildings, is not to be afraid of the white space on the paper. Um Let the white space work for you. Let it do something. It can communicate just as valuable information as lines can and curves. And to me, I always think of that with assassin Screed origins, because this is a game that takes place in Egypt. Obviously there is going there are going to be deserts, and this is a game that is content with just giving you a wide open swath of desert without a million side quests and activities and checkpoints in ye and it allows you to just kind of breathe in that white space, and it uses that white space. It also it lets you do an auto like an auto drive with your camel or horse, so that you gets so that you can have a cinematic experience of those spaces. And it's not a chore like they used it. Just like you said, they used it for a different kind of experience, which is emotional and reflective, a thing that Assassin's Creed hadn't had that much of. But it was well designed in that regard and from what it's worth, another game that does allow itself to have long rides, like long traversal periods, that also has the auto thing as dead to R d R two and I constantly couldn't use that one. Like the horse never quite and the camel, well you can get a horse, but I mean the steed in origins. For whatever it's worth, it is like spot on, like it really takes you. You can really zone out, and not in a bad way, but like you can fly Senu and look at the vistas around you as your camel takes you wherever you're gonna go, and it'll get you there. It's good, like it knows what's up. That's the other thing that this game introduced, though, too, was it changed the nature of Eagle Vision. Eagle Vision for the longest time had been okay, this this detective mode that highlights you know, enemies and my target everything like that, and this said, okay, no, your Eagle is going to be a part of you now, and you're it's going to be its own character, and it's gonna be Bike's companion and it's gonna get to fly throughout the entire map if you want it. To without ever encountering a single loading screen, and at any point you can, you know, stop it and you can go back to bike on the complete other side of the map. Who is on his camel riding somewhere else. Another shout out. This is one of the only games I've ever played that you can ride a camel in. UM. I don't have many just takes about how you should play a game. I am. I am firmly in the camp that you should ride a camel in Assassin's Creed origins. Yeah, it's great, it's a good experience. It's a really friend the horse the end game horse trust, I like the steed. So just a couple of really quick, fun behind the scenes details that kind of reinforce some things we said. So this one was made by Ubisoft Montreal UM and as I understand it, there are multiple teams that do multiple games, sort of like Call of Duty with Assassin's Creed, and ubisof Montreal is responsible. Well, Adam, the team is made up of a group of different fronds, so uh. This team started work on this immediately following Assassin's Creed for Black Flag, and the game they'd worked on before that was Assassin's Creed Revelations, And it's really interesting because for me, those are the games that land as the big shifts in the formula, like successfully shifting the formula, like both of those. Um there was a director from a different team who headed up Assassin's Creed three who said ancient Egypt is one of the worst places you could set an Assassin's Creed. So it's just kind of interesting that within the company, like different teams have a really different idea about what this is supposed to be from you know, this is all from Wikipedia, so I'm not breaking any thinking about the lack of verticat or where they were stuck in that mindset of like it's got to be a bunch of buildings close together and like a funny observation about the eagle thing. So I believe Ubisov Montreal was also the team that was working on Far Cry Primal, right, I think it was, and far Cry Primal also had that eagle that was sort of like a scout. I was just about to bring that out, Yeah, I was like, who thought of that first? I was, well, I think it's the same team. I think it's really fun that they found a way to cross. Yeah, it's really great. It's actually yeah, it's so you saw Montreal for Reference is massive. Um there there's there's more than four thousand people who work there. So um there's you know, I actually I and you know, I don't know. I'm sure there was some cross you know, um pollination happening, but you know, by and large, like the the the Core Origins team was was the you know, the core team that had worked on Black Flag and moved on from there. You know, I don't know, I don't know if, but you know, there's always a lot of influence. Maybe someone saw, hey, this is what Farcar problem was doing. That's a really cool idea. Maybe we can we can take it. But uh, what I what I think is is so awesome. Um. So, Jean Gadon is is the guy who's creative director on Assassin's Creed Origins and Assassin's Creed Black Flag. Um. And and you know there's a core team there, Darby McDevitt, who was narrative director um on on Black Flag and also Valhalla. Uh. Um, there's there's something you know about that team's games that stand out to people, like like you said, Adam, you know, and it seems like there's you know, I talk to people when when when I've learned their their favorite AC games, and they say, oh, you know, I love Origins, I love Black Flag and you know a lot of those same people too, do you know, uh love Valhalla. I'm like, ah, okay, you're you're a fan of that team's games, um, because that's you know, the team that builds Origins and Black Flag. You know, that is Ubisoft Montreal. Ubisoft Montreal also made the first you know, three a C games and one two in Brotherhood, but it wasn't it wasn't necessarily the same core team. UM. And then Ubisoft Quebec comes in UM as the lead studio for Syndicate in Odyssey. UM. But you know, I think it's it's interesting the DNA of teams and you know, if you know the games well enough, you can almost tell which teams put you know, made them just by you know, how how the games takes. That's interesting. Now. So one thing that I think deserves to be said about this game is it's actually like it's not just a pivot point for obvious reasons, like you know, which as they change the mechanics, it's that the narrative around Assassin's Creed before this game came out, was that Assassin's Creed was cynical, Like it was a cynical cash grad Like that's the thing that people were saying that gamers in particular, And it had the same sort of reputation the Call of Duty had and Assassin's Creed origins had this like I think, fairly monumental task of establishing the sincerity of this franchise with a brand new mechanical direction. I need to throw enough innovations at you that it feels revitalized. They took a year off, so they kind of like, in a sense, they were like hyping this game by not releasing a game. You know, I'd be like saying, like this one's gonna be good. We took a year off, like we're gonna you know. And I think the pivot did work here, But but mostly because I think they really took the story seriously, Like out of all the Assassin's Creed, this one is the most serious about its story, except I mean, you can make an argument about three maybe, but this one they're very committed to it and it's very emotionally told. Does anybody disagree with that? No, not at all like, and the down to the little details where I'm like, man, that's a good payoff, like the stepping on the bird's skull necklace he's been wearing the whole game and it makes the assassin logo in the sand, and you know, little details like that where you're like, they really did it. Any kind of movie that has to go back or any media that has to go back and rat con that's where this thing you're familiar with came from. That's always tricky, and they did it with a plum. Yeah, it works very well. My favorite example of that too is the origin of the cut Finger, where you know, Mike gets this hidden blade, he goes and he takes it all you know, to his first assassination, and he finds himself in a bath house and and he's in you know, he's in a peculious situation. He's he's uh, I think he's been caught by surprise or you know, he's pinned down on the ground and he has no choice but to just trigger the blade without being able to get his hand out of the way, and it goes right through his ring finger, and then you know it's the sacrifice he had to make him that moment, but it saved his life. And then it created this whole tradition. Uh. You know that that the the Order of Assassins kept you know up to you know, we see it used um in one and um, you know we see Bassim in assassin's feet. Lahalla has a cut finger. Um. And so it's it's something that you know, they eventually Etsio doesn't have to do. But I love those details. Yeah, when there's the whole story is built around or like pretty elegantly though, like Bayack Andy's situation is a perfect way to take the audience from the idea of a very personal I gotta kill this guy because he murdered my son in front of me. That's a very any you know, that's the core of revenge or any revenge story. But it's very personal. Uh. And then slowly but surely, over the course of uncovering this conspiracy, Uh, they realize that they and I thought a very interesting choice that I didn't think they would make. Um, they discard their relationship, even though they love each other very much, they discard They go through the period of realizing, um, we're not we've outgrown killing to satisfy our own emotional needs. This is becoming like a network of people who are going to kill dispassionately for particular reasons to help the world. Uh, it's cool. You feel the Assassin's Order coming together through their story. Well, and it hurts too, Like I like, it hurts that they break up. Where's than the kid getting killed? I'm like, there's so there's so few examples of like a happy like and it's hard to call them a healthy couple when their their son was killed. But like you know, a couple where you know their their conflict, you know, them being in conflict is not the point of them being together, you know, I isn't fridged to motivate Bayak or anything like that, Like it is, it's so like there are so many there are so few examples I should say, of a couple just loving each other and being there for each other and being what each other needs in that given moment. And I think I's introduction even just instantly adds this appeal to their relationship in which they they love each other, they are passionate, they are physically intimate with one another, and it's it's just something so rarely seen. And then so when they do split up at the end for a greater cause. And I think there's some parallels in there, because you know, they were both the parents of Kemu, and Kemmu was taken from them, and then they go through this this journey and they eventually become the parents of the Assassin's order um and they go and they take it in different directions and it's it hurts, but you understand why they have to do it. And then rose that Maja badge overboard real fast. You could have kept it for a little. That's an interesting piece of this narrative, that kind of that's actually, like I think the most elegant piece of this narrative is the Assassin's Creed has always been about people finding a larger purpose out of their personal tragedy, you know, or at least that's what it's been selling us. But a lot of Assassin's Creed up to this point has been pretty edge lordy about how they did it, you know what I mean. Like, I just replayed Assassin's Creed two before this podcast because I wanted to like have in my mind fresh the differences between the two characters and et CEO, like, you know, he comes to accept the creed after like years and years. But it's not through sacrifice so much as it's a coping step for him. It's a maturing step for him. These two make make like honorable, thoughtful choices to leave a series of traditions behind. They leave the megi behind, they leave their child behind, they leave their marriage behind, they leave like all their traditional morality behind. And the game exactly, and the game places very carefully a lot of artifacts that matter that are authoritarian artifacts that these decisions happen around, like the tomb of Alexander the Great Right, or like the Lighthouse of Alexandria, things that sort of represent human civilization and the way things have been tradition, right. And Egypt is a great setting for this because it has an ancient civilization that represents a tradition that's being swallowed by a new tradition, and so they have this sort of metaphorical evolution happening around them and therefore have to put these things aside as a sort of personal step that joins the setting. It's really well crafted, like narratively that way, you know, it's really impressive. Yeah, I wanted to point out that I I was sort of gritting and playing it through it again. For this, I think it's sneaky influential too, or I mean, you can always argue that they're superficial similarities or the plot turns. You know, there's only so many plot terns. But like, there's a long scene in this that's a flashback where you teach your son to fire a bow and hunt an animal and then your son tragically dies later. It's very God of War to the and then comparing them scene for scene, I'm like, I think I like the writing in origins better because like God of War is the scene I looked at him again. The scene ends with comb boy and they lead right, that's the end line, and this one ends with I'm going to tell you something my father told me one word that changed my life forever. Jump. That's way better to me. It's just better writing. And then another one that really caught me is you end up going into a vault and realizing that there's actually another layer of civilization that's way more technologically advanced than you could ever conceive, and the key to getting into that vault is your own genetic material. That is the plot of Horizon zero Down. I just think it's a funny parallel and it could be nothing. But I don't know. I know the people that made those games played this, you know. I just feel like it's part of the flow. And I think media is highly highly iterative, which gaming embraces, which I like about it. So I'm not doing this to say like they stole this from this or that's the I think it's more interesting to say, no, this is the flow of ideas and the provenance of this idea and how it got woven into the tapestry that is wherever we're at with gaming. But I'm just saying I think there are a lot of Assassin's creeds, and you tend to go like, yeah, there's like am in my mind, there's like a blur of like, yeah, all the Assassin's creeds, and it's worth it to drill down sometimes and appreciate that there's individual ones that I think they're really saying, and I think this is one of them, and I think it's sort of been woven into our gaming consciousness, probably more than we think. It is a bundle of a lot of really good gaming ideas that are truly innovative, like the Eagle Vision thing alone is a big deal. To me, well, and you know, I we take I think photomodes from granted now too, and I get that note a surprisingly good photo mode for this year. Yeah, so my favorite thing about it, and you know, it might not have the features that you know some other photomodes have, but my favorite thing about it is a photomode triggers from wherever whatever you're currently controlling at that time. So if you're flying a senew around, you know, circling the pyramids, um, you can trigger it then and then you can get the exact shot you want from you know, five hundred feet in the air if you want. And it's something that Origins and Valhalla have done too, or excuse me, Odyssey and Valhalla have also done. And I just I love that level of manipulation and control that Yeah, I can. I can get up exactly as high as I want to get a top down a literal bird's eye view if I want, and just it just and it triggers on the thumbsticks, which just feels good to me. I don't have to pause the game, I don't have to go to a menu. I can just instantly hit both thumbsis and I'm in it and I'm lining up the shot exactly how I want. It's awesome. So I'm just sort of curious. Do we feel like this change toward RPG elements is abandoning anything essential to Assassin's Creed? Like in hindsight, I know this was like a sort of an in between one in that regard. Do we see that trend as an essential not violation, but an essential shift in Assassin's Creed? And do we miss it? I feel like RPG elements. So something interesting is I actually don't tend to as much as I want to, like hardcore RPGs most that I play, And Adam and I have talked about this and how we feel bad for the audience because if we know people love them like, we don't cover as much like turn based classics slock through at RPGs. The number goes up. Now you can kill this guy. I it's not my favorite kind of game. I do like engaging in some kind of reflex play or physics play, or like not just crunching, you know, a turn order. And so even though RPGs are actually not my favorite genre, I think there's something magical about RPG mechanics. RPG mechanics do speak to something primal and humans about putting things together and they become other things and you get bigger and the number goes up. I do think that's very primal, and so I think almost every genre, like RPG mechanics are the cranberry juice of gaming. It it makes any other juice better, but you don't want to drink straight cranberry juice. You do want to. So I feel like limited RPG elements mixed into almost any genre do make it more interesting to me, Like, uh, you know, a survival horror game that's modern versus a survival horror game from before we were mixing RPG elements in it does feel shallower and less deep, like oh, there's no texture, my character doesn't level up, And maybe I'm just used to that, and maybe there will be a change in the wind and we'll go back to the purity of whatever some different experience. But I would say, for the most part, limited RPG mechanics always make your game better. And then this is where I diep over and then putting too many RPG mechanics in starts to make it bogged down, and if your game loop is not suited for that, you start to feel that weight and go. Now we're just doing RPG mechanics for the sake of doing RPG mechanics. And I know this is highly controversial, but some games that I feel like have that, Like I think which are three? The Wild Hunt has that where the RPG mechanics are so detailed that it weighs down what you're doing, etcetera, etcetera. So and I think Odyssey has that, and I feel like Origins has I'm a broad right, it's just the right amount. Yeah, it's the right amount. It's um, there's a lot of a lot of options. Um. And yet you've seen more complicated systems, for sure. It's not the most complicated RPG system ever. It's like a medium one. That's what I like about it. Also, this game has the perfect amount of modern day animous scenes, which is almost that. What do you think about that use? If it is this better or worse than the traditional formula? I you know, I this is going to sound like a cop on answer. I really genuinely enjoy them both. A friend of mine, well, so Assassin Street recently had its like fifteenth anniversary, and um, part of what I do at yourself, this is stream games, and so we were streaming every game in the series counting down to the Assassin Scree showcase. In the reviewal of Assassin Scream Mirage this past September, And so I was going through when I was literally I was playing every single one again. Um. And I think, like you could ask my co host Chris Waters every time every week we got to in the next one, I was like, God, this this is so good? Should should I replay this? Should I replay this? Uh? And I was just like, you know, asking myself that over and over again every week. So I genuinely love you know, both uh, both formulas, um. You know, the more action adventure stealth uh of the old game and the the RPG one. The thing I will say about Origins and I feel Odyssey, UH this applies to as well, is that I think the game's had to change. Yeah, that's right. I don't think. I don't think this setting. I don't think this this um. I honestly, I mean, we'll we'll start there. I don't think this setting could support um. You know the previous versions of Assassin's Creed that relied so much on stealth, It relied so much on the urban environment. You know, the climbing. Um. You know, there's there's when when you open up the space like you do when you go to Egypt and you go so far back in time, um, it ascessin states certain things. And I think one of the things we haven't quite talked about that I think gets slept on is that Assassin's Creed you know not it wasn't just the combat that changed, but the actual quest structure changed. There was a quest system previously Assassin's Creed all mission base right, you got you got a mission. You were doing that mission while you you know, as you had it, you weren't exploring. You know, you weren't accumulating a quest slog, you weren't dropping in and out of one thing or another. No, you got a mission to go, you know, escort um uh Karl Marx and you know in Assassin's Creed Syndicate, that's what you were doing at that time, whereas here, you know, it was you were meeting people, you were talking to and you were learning their their their stories and saying, Okay, you know, I might come back and do this later, or I might you know, something else might happen. I might fight a crocodile along the way or whatever else. And so I think when you opened your game all these different tasks, you could do it anytime. Yeah, yeah, exactly when you opened up the game this much, it needed to change, It needed to embrace part of the the RPG elements of that, y'all see. Now, I would say that is that's because it was a good marriage of setting and game mechanic. But I don't so like, I don't. I mean, I can't say what what what came first the setting or the game mechanicum, But you're right percent right, Like, in order to play in this version of Egypt, it couldn't be the same way, like you just because it just wasn't as vertical. There wasn't as uh, there wasn't as much opportunity for the kind of stealth missions that defined Assassin's Creed. Um. I think that while this game was a welcome change because the formula was so routine at this point, uh, that I do think that the stealth, puzzling, traversal puzzling piece of Assassin's Creed is my favorite piece game play wise, and they've gotten very far away from that, particularly Valhalla, but also even to a degree, Assassin's Creed Odyssey, which I like as the most gamified version of this idea because I think it is. I think it's the farthest in the gamified version of combat. I think it's inarguable that Assassin's Creeds combat was not as good as it became with this game, Like you had to take combat more seriously in this game, So they were fixing a real problem. But I don't think that. I think it was fixing a problem and creating another problem that showed up later in the franchise, just not in this game. And that's okay, you know what I mean, Like that's not their problem, you know, like that's just a later iterations problem. So but I do think the perfect version of Assassin's Creed as an idea would would maintain a more rigorous version of the stealth traversal mechanics stuff in an urban environment of some kind that also makes you take combat more seriously and is more rewarding. And I don't know what the solution is because I'm not a game dev, but I you know, I think they turned to a Dark Soul's esque mechanic nick for a reason, because Dark Souls has the best third person action combat there is. You know, but like it also takes really carefully fine tuned. Uh. I think, well, we can talk about that some of the time. It takes a lot of signs. Fair enough. I see that argument. I don't agree with it, but I see it. It doesn't that's not insane. That takes. It takes careful. I personally love God of Wars, but but I don't want to get off on the rails here. I do not like that. As much I appreciate it you did that. I'll just say, all of those games we mentioned, though, are really really carefully balanced and have been iterated and fixed to a degree that I don't feel what was true of this game, or at least doesn't come across as true of this game or really any of them since. So, I don't think we found the perfect marriage of these two pieces. Um. I don't know that they can be married. Hopefully a dad out there will prove us wrong, of course, and maybe a mirage is the perfect but I don't even know that they need to be balanced. I kind of agree with you, so if that, UM, I actually don't like them both. But I would say there are two modes general modes, and both are totally defensible and you can like both or one or the other or whatever. I happen to prefer the Origin style. I don't care for blending in with a crowd and slowly walking or having to like sit down on a bench until people pass like that. I just don't like games. Um but uh yeah, but if you do like that, then you'll like the ones that do that. You know, it's nice that there's both. So yeah. And also, and that was always what was so unique about Assassin's Creed, and that, like your default state in that game is walking very slowly. You have to push a button, if not sometimes multiple buttons to to start actually acting, you know, in a video gaming manner, right to start running, to start climbing, to start fighting. Your default state in that game is passive in blending in and and casual, which I think is is something that really appealed to people. In the other there are the people who say Assassin's Creed is you know, was at its best in the early years to love that kind of thing, right, I love Origins where your default mode is running as fast as you can all the time. That's what I USh a button the rim and and and as you said, that's as beautiful is that is that both of those exist. But I also think that that you know, RPG elements did exist long before Origins. To go back to Black Flag and and you know you were upgrading the Jackdaw in that game much the way you know you upgrade, you know, your your outfit, your armor, Unity and Syndicate both had XP and you know you were upgrading your gear. Um, you know that you were wearing your weapons, your swords, things like that. So it was always the seeds have been planted a little bit earlier, but than Origins, you know, really really take it in. Yeah, yeah, essilutely true. Assassin's Creed three was pouring goods on you three dead minutes with like what am I doing with all this sugar? I don't know what you got to build that big exactly? There's that island. And again, sort of contrary to the way that Assassin's Creed gets represented by gamers on Twitter or whatever, they really try a lot of stuff in this franchise, like Assassin's Creed four is a wildly different experience than anything that came before Brotherhood created. I want to say, like the calling in a team of people and then revelations had tower defense, Like they really try stuff in this franchise, and this one is no exception. All right, it's time. I'm throwing it to break, and when we come back, we will render our final verdict. See if you can guess whether we will keep or delete this game from the celestial hard drive as these ads transpire. No, don't try to guess. Focus on the ads. Then buy those products, then right in and said that you bought those products because of the ads on our show. We'll be back. We're back. I hope you bought those things or thought about them in a positive light, and that that benefits us somehow in the future. This is still one upsmanship. We're still talking Assassin's Creed origins with Yusef McGee, and we're about to enter the final countdown. I suppose a segment we call keep or delete, or we decide whether the game and question should be included on a heavenly hard drive that we've decided can hold one hundred games, and after Humanity is destroyed or maybe some time before, it will be fired into deep space and discovered by aliens, and the only thing they'll know about Humanity and our culture will be this hard drive. Of video games. So those are the stakes, and we don't know anything about the aliens, so you don't need to try to figure out how to please them. That's right. I will say a lot of guests just think of it as a top one hundred games list. I prefer to think of it as a celestial hard drive being shot into space. So we can be judged by aliens. But you do you? I like that. I like that, like the time capsule idea of like, hey, if we're going to represent all of gaming in a hundred games, well, I think that we think of the well, we like to think of our show as trying to be a little more artistically ambitious and treating the medium with slightly more seriousness and respect. I mean not that we don't joke around, but like trying to treat the medium as as legitimate I mean as a legitimate force that's been with us our entire lives and help shape us. So from that stance, you're talking to someone who wrote their master's thesis about architecture and video games exactly art and it's not just a list of like I think Mario is the coolest. You know, we're trying to do like what's the real art here? That said Mario has made it on the list several times, is the coolest he's umb But moving on to the vote itself. Um, the only other thing we should note is that the drive is not full yet because we're very stingy with our keeps, so there's no no danger bumping anything else. One day that ass Creed two is on it. Okay, we that is it? Yeah, all right, well I'll keep first that was obvious. That was very predictable. I think from my vibes. Um, the only thing I'll say against it at all is that there's things in it that we've done better since then, because gaming is iterative, Like after playing Ghosts of Tsushima the cop and then playing this Origins again, I'm like, the combat is good. I wish it was as good as Ghost of Sushima because they've developed even further on this type of combat. Um. But that's like my only knock against it, man, Like, other than like the natural course of artistic and technological improvement, right, like there's better graphics now than there were then or whatever, as a as an achievement of art of many many, many human beings working together to create a thing. It pleases me very greatly. Yes, And I think it's especially good for the Aliens because rarely do they like Mario games are great, but Mario game teaches them almost nothing about our culture. Keep going after Mario? What a waste energy? Wait wait, I'm sorry, how is saying Mario games are great? Going after Mario? You're you know what you're saying, you know what you're in playing? Uh yusef please save us? Would you keep it? Delete this kid? I'm going to keep it as well, I think am I think not. You know, Michael brings up a great point, and it is a good and respectful representation of humanity. But it is also I think a you know, there was a time when Origins was the outlier, right like in a in a post syndicate world, Origins came out and it was like, oh my god, this is this is so different. It is now after Odyssey in Valhalla. You know, it now exists on a spectrum. It is not the far end anymore. And I think part of the importance of that is that it is now a good representation of the franchise as a whole, of of the marriage between um you know, maybe more traditional and you know, traditional in terms of the story, the fact that this is about the foundation of the Brotherhood, and with the new mechanics that it introduced that we're more RPG facing. And so I think for those reasons, it is a very good representation for Assassin's Creed as a brand, which I think when you look at video games and you know, in one hundred years or when whenever aliens get this drive and they survey all of the games on it, Assassin's Creed is just as influential, if not more influential, than many many franchises out there. And you guys made this hard on me today. Uh well, let me say this. So I'm really torn honestly because this is not the most fun Assassin's Creed. I think, I like, I think there's a couple that I would pick for more fun. But I think there's no doubt. Yeah, yeah, I think there's no doubt it has the best setting. Um, I think there's no doubt it has the best story. Uh, and I think it does have a lot of the things that are essential to Assassin's Creed. All Right, I guess I'm gonna keep it. Yeah, I'm gonna keep it. Uh. And I think we should talk about whether there should be more than one Assassin's Creed on here, because I would say no, but uh, more fun like slowly walking with a crowd of people who are walking slowly. That's intentionally misrepresent the fun of these other games. How is that mister slowly walking with a group slowly part of that game? All right, it's a part of it Assassin's Creed too in particular that I'm thinking of, But also it's not that's not the most fun one. I think four is the most fun. Uh. There's a lot of leaping up and down and climbing on rooftops and assassinating people from way up lunchline. There's a lot of that stuff, and this game doesn't really have that much of this. Uh. And I like that that's the that's the cool part of the game to me, or at least as a franchise. But you, as you guys have said, I mean, this game is awesome and I and as a as a history simulator, it's fantastic. It's the best, So I feel like it deserves me on I don't I don't know if things are gonna get bumped later on in an episode that I am I'm not on. But I stand firm that Assassin's creat is one of the most influential franchises in the history of gaming. Uh. And that's bold deserves deserves two spots, So okay, and what Assassin's creat to be or other one if you're keeping that or do you not care about that one so much? Um? Just I think I think it would be in terms of, like, okay, if we're representing the most important games in the franchises, and I do think AC two and AC Origins are the two most important games in the franchise. Yeah, just just you know, for for what they did and you know what they did, right, yeah, and and the president they sent the things they left behind for the for the games to come after them. Um. But you know, look at any modern open world game that's that's been developed in the last decade and a half, and you know there are bits and pieces of of AC everywhere. I mean, yeah, that's undoubtedly true. Uh. And I think I also have nostalgic glasses for the early experience of Assassin's Creed when it was a new idea and just like the idea of running around the rooftops and these ancient civilizations is like so rad uh you know so Uh. We're gonna wrap it up there, everybody, UM, thanks so much for joining us. Use if we loved having Thank you and and uh we will see you guys on the ne next time. On one upsmanship worked complete