There's something in the water in the Merrimack Valley (a suburban area outside of Boston) and today's guest is yet another example of someone else who was raised in the cradle of that musical mecca for punk/hardcore and metal; Joseph Grillo. He played guitar for Garrison (Revelation Records) and currently fronts the band Her Heads On Fire (Iodine Recordings). Joseph is a seasoned veteran of our awesome indie music scene and we spoke of his various experiences with record labels, the need to create and a lot more.
Listen to the Official Outbreak Podcast here (executive produced by yours truly)
Weekly Recommendation Playlist
You're listening to one hundred words or less with Ray Harkins. Oh hey, there, everybody, Welcome to this week's show, where we're you know, of course, talking about independent music, punk, hardcore, indie rock, emo, pop, punk, whatever. Like I think, I just want to come up with a list of like an exhaustive, like every single genre possible. But anyways, you are here because you hopefully like this music, and you also like discussions with people who create this music, who document it. That is what we do on the show. If this is your first time here, welcome. There's plenty of episodes to dive into. If you like this one, or even if you hate this one, you can probably find one that you do enjoy. Oh my gosh, But this week I have a great conversation with a person whose work I sincerely admire and he definitely has not lost his creative spark and step. That is the one Joseph Grillo. He currently plays in a band called her Head's on Fire, who just released a record on Iodine Records. It's awesome, sort of like I don't know, power pop, I guess you would call it, so, you know, if you like super chunk and all that sort of stuff. You absolutely will love this. He also played in a band called Garrison that I adored, put out some stuff on Revelation Records. He also played in a band called Instruction that was a quick, post hardcore sort of super group with the some members of Quicksand. And he's played in so many different bands, and he's had a lot of experiences within the different elements of the music industry broadly speaking. And so yeah, I just I knew he was going to be a interesting conversation and he proved to be that. So you you want to contribute to this show, you just email me one under Words podcast at gmail dot com. Love to hear feedback and guest ideas and all that sort of stuff. I have some pretty exciting episodes coming up that you know, some of them were inspired by people reaching out and that's what happens. You can also if you are willing to support this show for zero dollars, because you know, I'm give this stuff to you for free. I mean, obviously I make some dough off of it with advertisements and such, but you know that's just providing this to you on a weekly basis for zero dollars. You can leave a rating and review on the Apple podcast page, or leave just simply a rating on Spotify. That helps out tremendously. If you want to engage with this show on YouTube, I upload all of the episodes there so you know, spread the word. There's also a link in the show notes if you're like, you know what I want to do that, I'm just going to go ahead and dive in there and subscribe and boom we're off and running. You also like music, right, I have been doing these weekly recommendations, obviously every week on a new episode, because you know, I mean, we all like sharing music and discovering new bands. And there's a link in the show description that compiles all of the music from all the bands that I've recommended on a Spotify playlist. It is a great way for you to get exposed to, you know, new music or music you may have missed and this. Normally I don't really lean into singles because you know, I personally like full bodies of work, so to speak. But I have been obsessed with this song from a band called Cold God Gawd. They are a shoeheze band from the lost Greater Los Angeles area. I'm not mistaken. They put out a full length a couple of years ago on Dias Records, and this new one is coming out on August thirtieth, and the name of the song is all My Life, My Heart, and then there's a bunch of other stuff. I'm not gonna well, they bore you. I mean it's a song title, but I'm just not gonna, you know, name it here, but hosts the song on this playlist. And their new record comes out on August thirtieth. Like I mentioned, it's called I Will Drown on this Earth. This song, it just like completely completely captures my attention and it has me. You know, it's the exact reason that you release stuff before a record comes out. It's just now I'm like anticipating the whole record to be, you know, different shades of this. Cold God was. I already enjoyed their previous recorded output, but they have leveled up in just I don't know, textures, catchiness, like it just feels so lived in and I love it. So that is what I'm recommending to you this week, Cold God, All My Life, My Heart, dot dot dot, and a bunch of other stuff. But let's talk to Joseph Grillo. Like I said, he plays in a band called her Head's on Fire released a full length on Adine Records. I really enjoy it and love Garrison, and I was just he's always struck me as a very interesting person from all the other interviews that I've read with him, and now we get to dive deep and he's very thoughtful and talks, you know, a lot of interesting things about Merrimac Valley because they are from the you know, greater Boston area, and that is so insanely fertile for music, It's crazy. So yeah, we go there and a million other places. So here is Joseph Craigny. I will take take you back to probably you know, the the early aughts as it were, when I heard serious, serious heavy drama on what I think was a split promo tape with by a thread if I'm not mistaken, where yeah, where Rev was handing it out you know to everybody and anybody in the local scene as it were, chows and what have you. And I had no context for the band at all besides listening to that song and being like, I freaking love it, Like I really really enjoy what it is that's going on. It's you know a mixture of all these you know, cool jangly indie rocks and memo whatever. I find this interesting when you're talking about like bands that are obviously of that you know, independent nature, where it's like all right, like pick the you know, pick the lead track or pick the single, and it's like you don't know what that means. You're just like, this is the song I guess I like the most or whatever. But do you remember having discussions of being like, all right, you know, this is the song that we're kind of like leading with where people will get introduced to Garrison broadly speaking, or was that just like a happy accident of being like, oh, it's the first song the EP, so here we go.
I think with with that one in particular, we knew that it had a sound that that was kind of unique because between the palm meeting riff that I was doing and the guitar work that Ed was doing on it and the drums, so you know, I really adore the rhythm section of that time, that era of that band. I think there was something about it that felt really fresh to us. Because you know, when you're writing music, like you you know, you're you know your touchstones. So even if you're kind of putting Frankensteining together, like, oh, well, this is obviously the Beatles, and then we're obviously ripping off cap and jazz here, and then that's obviously converge. And then I mean everybody knows this is yes, they don't know that, but in your mind you have this running sort of diagram of everything you're kind of ripping off in the early days, because that's how you learn to craft, right. And there was something about that song in particular that I don't looking back. I don't remember what it was influenced by or what I was going for, but it just seemed that I had this riff and a you know, a simple melody, and I brought it to the guys and it just kind of I was like, Wow, I didn't think that drum beat was gonna what the drum beat was going to be, And wow, ed, I didn't think you were going to play that, and wow, Andy's way more melodic here. So that just seems from my point of view of a songwriter, that seemed like one of my first creations that felt more true to my voice than I had been in the past. If that makes sense, Yeah, it absolutely does. And I think that I was less wearing my influences on my sleeve right totally.
And I think that the reason I asked that is just because when you start to have people listening to your music from a commercial perspective, and it doesn't have to be you know, like commercial doesn't have to mean this large thing. It's just like, we're putting out your record, so we liked the song the best, and then you have to think about You're like, wait, yeah, do you like like I don't like that song the best? Like, and you start to have this dialogue, which it's a healthy dialogue, but I just find it funny when, especially at that time where bands first impressions and still today, band's first impressions are important, but it's less important now because you can access every single song ever recorded in the music history. Whereas, like, you know, the only time a person may hear Garrison is being like, oh, yeah, well this tape that randomly ended up in my hands at a show or whatever. It's like, if I didn't like it, I would have just been like, oh, Garrison's a terrible band. It's like no, but I did I didn't think Yeah.
I actually think about that a lot like I think that in definitely at that time, we were not thinking single in the traditional sense of like what will be hooky enough to get people to listen to us? Right, And so I think a lot of bands or a lot of people that work in labels or go, well, that's the track with the most memorable melody, so that will get people to buy the album, and then maybe a certain percentage will listen to more of it and sort of ingest it. My feeling at the time then, and it changed at some point and now it's back to kind of that same thing. Is My goal is to sort of make something that would turn me on if I heard it on the radio at someone's house. You know, I'd be like whoa, whoa, whoa whoall but back up, Like, I remember the first time I heard like you know rodin the everyday World of Bodies, I was like, I was like, what the fuck is this? This is a never have I or Bitch Magnet or drive like Jayhu. I wanted to like touch the sound waves. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. Now, I'm not saying that our music was ever that sort of groundbreaking, but but I'm still trying to make something that that's that makes me feel cool and cool in the broad way, not in the like ego way, just like makes me feel like, oh I want more of this whatever this is right, you know. So I think that that's what the plan was then, And we just thought, well, this song kind of encapsulates a little bit of all the things we do. But but it sounds neat for lack of a better you know, I think we're really, you know, sort of glassy eyed about it. And then years later I was in like, you know, bands on geth and I started thinking about like, well hooks and drawing people in. But now, to come back to your original point about like everything's available, your music has to be so good because you're in competition with the entire history of recorded music. You know. It's like when you were, you know, seventeen, Like maybe you had twenty records and somebody handed you a tape at a show and you bothered to listen to it more than once, and you have a chance. Well, now, like somebody listened to her Head's on Fire has to compete with like Sam Cook, you know what I mean, and like and and their record collection is the entire history of recorded music, and it's like, so, fuck man, how am I gonna beat Sam Cook? How am I gonna beat Pink Floyd?
Right?
You know, like why are people don't want to choose to listen to me instead of that? And that's the right, And to.
Be fair, you won't, but you can exist alongside of it.
Yeah you won't. Yeah, well it's it's it's it's how does your like? You'll never be that like? But but how does your voice and the collective voice of the band sound special? How is it not sound cookie cutter? You know? And and I think that that that's the goal is to be like, is to have someone hear it and go, oh that's just interesting enough. And but in my wheelhouse, but I like this? What is I want this?
Absolutely? And well I'll pull on some of those streads a little bit later. But focusing on you as a person, Uh, were you actually born and raised in Woosta? Or where did you come up?
It's pronounced the full pronunciations. It's the case. There we go, thank you, But yes, I was born and raised in Shrewsbury, which is the would be considered the mildly affluent suburb of Worcester where people like electricians like my father lived the tradesman that he was. But Worcester was the back drop of my youth up until I guess well college, I went to the University of New Hampshire, but I would still be back in Worcester a lot, sort of working at the space with Ed and other people. But until I moved to Boston in ninety seven, yeah, I was okay.
And your family structure, like mom and dad in the house, brothers and sisters. What did that look like?
Mom? Dad, one older brother got it. And we lived in Shusbury Public School. You know, it's everybody talking. It was a seventy so you know it's like people just like come home when the street lights go on, you know, like we just played with our neighborhoods. The Brenda and Stacy Millie were two doors down and across the street, and they were you know, Brenda was my brother's age and Stacey was my age, so we were immediately best friends. And then Chris broad for Brada and the Kavarises and Jimmy Montague and Sam mccanti. You know, that was just my upbringing. Yeah, it was just very It was right, you know, I mean it wasn't. It was a different to us, definitely.
And as you started to you know, grow up in this very quote unquote stereotypical, you know, suburban upbringing, trying to find an identity in the suburbs has been a through line for most subculture in general. And when did you start to you know, discover that side of things, whether it's you know, music, or whether it was other weird things that like you were into that you know, your brother wasn't into, or your peers weren't into. How did that stuff start to enter your space.
There was a place called the WAG, which is the Worcester Artist Group, and I was very fortunate enough to be friends with a gentleman named Ed McNamara and a gentleman named Todd Droghi, and they took me because I probably would have been too afraid to go on my own. And they had open mic nights and they and then there's a place called the Coffee Kingdom, which is where everybody hung out. And the Wag was like incredibly formative because it was an art space. You know, it was an illegal warehouse on Harlew Street in Worcester, Massachusetts, and so that there was like maybe five or six people that lived there and had studios in the space, but then the outside was a gallery sort of. The main space was a gallery, and then part of that main space gallery was also a stage, and you know, they would put on shows to pay the rent and sort of invite people in to see what they their work and what they'd done. And it was cool because like not only you know, sort of the cliche that you hear a lot of people in my age talk about, like oh yeah, like you'd see a hippie jam band and an electro pop band and then a hardcore band and then like a metal band. That's true, but it was also watching these bands in a fucking out there art gallery and being exposed to like visual art that I'd never seen before at the age of fifteen, and sculpture really, you know a lot of industrial sculpture and a band in fact called Industrial Sonic Echo who were ambient music making you know, music with instruments that they had built and that on top of everything else, were like spoken word. This guy Bill McMillan, who was brilliant and would come out like in like a hajib and like a hatchet and like fake blood and like all these wonderful things that to a young mind were like what's going on? What's going on? And that was my introduction to art. So I always associated hardcore as something that should be incorporating all these other things.
I love when you start to, even at an early age or at a later age, when you start to make these connections between you know, art, music, politics, and it all starts to you know, congeal together to where you understand how one can connect to the other. And it's so cool that you were able to kind of, you know, almost out of the at the jump, be able to recognize the connection between those two.
It was. It was absolutely inspiring and incredible, and I don't think I think the dividends of that that experience for me will be paying off, you know, in decades to come. I think I'll probably reflect on it in my seventies like, wow, that was really neat you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, anyways, it's it was It was a it was a blast.
I was very very Yeah, that's awesome.
And because it also gave me something. You I mean, the kids, kids in like you said, kids in the suburbs are so desperate to be down, they so want a real culture and that that one was one was handed to me. You know, I was like, oh, wow, there's something real here, right, There's something real and I can be a part of it. And I'm I'm invited to the party. You know that that meant the world?
Sure? Absolutely, And from what I only got to see Garrison once, but I've you know, what existed around you for you know, many years, as you've been playing in a lot of different bands and what have you. Uh, You've always seen the sort of person where it's like you're comfortable on a stage and you know, for lack of venter term performing But was that kind of always the case or am I just you know, looking at this too deeply in regards to like, oh, you seem comfortable, So you probably have always been comfortable on stage.
Are you asking me for my knowledge of musical thing if you have that? Yes, No, I'm a theater kid. I'm a theater kid. I started at a wonderful teacher named mister Feldheimer who would put me in productions in the starting in the fourth grade. I'd be in these high school productions and performing in front of like seven hundred people. Maybe that's a bit in the exaggeration maybe it's four hundred people in the Shoesbury High School auditorium and at a young age, and I would do that quite a bit, and then choir and jazz band, and I loved that. I loved theater. I went to college and studied theater. I never wanted to do it after I graduated, but I'm happy I studied it because I'm still quite fascinated by it. But I don't know. The thing about it is weird, and I have thought a lot about this too, is I don't I'm not a character on stage. I did do kind of a character thing with gay for Johnny Depp, but but I'm not really a character on stage. It's it's kind of just a side of me that I allow to that I let out of the box.
I get, you know what that feeling is like when you first start to go to shows and you start to experience the awesomeness that is the community, and then like you walk up to a band member and you buy their shirt from them, Oh my gosh, it's so exciting. I so distinctly remember some of the first shirts that I bought. And that is where rockabilly dot Com can give you some sort of that feeling again. So go to rockabilly dot com. Use the promo code one hundred words or less. That's the number. One zero zero words or less gets you ten percent off your entire order. They are independently owned and operated company ships from the Midwest here in the United States of America. And what do they do. Obviously they sell merch. They sell officially licensed merch from bands of all shapes and sizes, whether it's you know, a smaller punk band or whether it's like a gigantic band like Metallica. Have everything you could possibly want. And you know, I mean there's birthdays, there's holidays coming up, Like why don't you just go ahead and buy a bunch of stuff and you know, maybe stash in your closet and then that way you can just you know, let it drip out over the course of all of these you know, upcoming events and you know, maybe maybe weddings. What a great wedding present. Just open it up and bam, band merch. So cool. So, like I said, it's all officially licensed. That means the bands get paid. Everybody wins in this scenario, including you. When you use the promo code one hundred words or less ten percent off of your entire order. Thank you as always for your continue to support rockabilia and support them rockabillya dot com. Were you like, did you feel you know, comfortable from the performance aspect and then attaching like were you a generally outgoing human being as you were, you know whatever, developing your identity as a person in you know, junior high, high school and stuff like that.
No, I wouldn't say so. I think I felt it took an incredibly long time to not always feel awkward and strange. I wasn't. I didn't get bullied too much. I think because of the theater stuff that people they didn't think I was cool, but but they they knew who I was, So maybe that saved me, you know, getting shoved into the lockers as many times as sort of my friends. But yeah, it took me a really long time to actually I think it was experience of working in retail. I think later in life I worked in a wine shop. I own a wine shop now, and sort of talking to people and working in retail really helped develop an ability and theater as well, but like an ability to sort of bridge that little gap that we all have when we meet each other at first, but that's been worked on and fought for in my life. It wouldn't never came from.
Yeah, I love that experience of, you know, whatever, if it is your first shop at retail, whether it's you know, working at a you know, record store, video store, or whatever. I mean, I'm talking about jobs that don't exist anymore, but just that idea of connecting with people who are absolute strangers, but they're in there for a reason, and you obviously have to make them feel welcome, so you, you know, do your best to be able to present for you not only yourself, but obviously the company you work for, and so like that really is training for you to be like, oh, I can use some of those principles towards you know, booking a show or whatever.
Mm hmm. And and I've been. I was fortunate too because I always worked for mom and pops, so everyone was pretty up front. They're like, look, no job is worth your self respect. If someone's an asshole to you kick them out, you know what I mean. Like I never had to really eat shit because a customer, you know, because I worked at you know, I didn't work it, like I don't know what a Starbucks or whatever. You had to be like, yeah, okay, you're really unhappy. I'm gonna try and smile. I I fortunately never had to do that, but yeah, it's it's it's a skill set, man like talking to people and and bridging that gap and finding the common ground and commonality that we have. It's a it's a it's definitely something that you need to work on continually.
Absolutely. And so your first tastes of music in regards to, you know, stuff that either your parents or your peer group wasn't listening to. I guess this is kind of a two part question. Was guitar always the entry point for you? And then the second question would be like what was the first weirdo stuff you started to listen to?
The first is no and second is Pink Floyd. So, so I grew up in Worcester. I was born in seventy four, right, So in the eighties in Worcester there's a station called w aa F, and w a F played hair metal and only hair metal. And so there was hair metal and then there was like pop, you know whatever, it was the dance pop on the radio, you know, just the background of like Hollan Oates and which is great stuff for like the cars, but it was it was just it was pop music, right, And so I heard I was in summer before the eighth grade. I think it was like a would it have been a track me something, some kind of outside thing. But I heard Pink Floyd's The Wall, which is already you know, I had already been doing a lot of musical theater, and that that has a musical theater element to it, has all these repeating phrases, these themes that come back. There's choruses, there's brass, there's strings. So I I was like, whoa, this is awesome. And so I listened to that, you know, two three times a day for you know, like eight months or whatever. And then so I had this opening moment with classic rock and then discovered like King Crimson and Yes, and so I love the prog aspect of it, right. And then and then I heard rim and The Cure pretty much simultaneously. And then I went to see Rim on the Green Tour, which had been eighty eight, and then I was hooked at the whole. Well before it was called alternative, it was called postmodern music. And so that had me because that that seemed to encapsulate a lot more feeling than I was hearing from either the hair metal or the pop that was on the radio at the time.
Sure, and that hair metal era, because I find it so interesting when people that have you know, gone from that particular scene, like from either literally experiencing the sunset strip, like moving there and then moving past it and being like, oh, that was cool, but you know, I it wasn't something that was going to last a long period of time, and feeling like the inauthenticity of it and just the showmanship and being like I'm not really searching for that, but then finding the aggressive nature of a lot of that music and then being like, oh, yes, like punk or hardcore, Like I see the through line there in ways that you know, other people would never put those two together.
You know, mm hmm. Well, I mean hair metal was such a bizarre thing because you know, they were taking this thing rooted in Bowie and t Rex and the New York Dolls, this glam, this androgyny thing and injecting it with like hyper toxic masculinity, you know, like a fucking du coke and fuck bitches, you know like that. Hell yeah, And I just remember hearing most of it, And even though I liked, you know, some of the the choruses when I was young, there was something about it that never sat right with me. So I was like, this is gross, and I just never liked a lot of it. It never made sense. It always seemed like a very very light level form of music. Yeah, personally, yeah, and yeah, service level. I mean it's fine. It's like, I guess it's good to have on while you're crushing meister Brows in a field in central Massachusetts. But but uh yeah, I wanted something to to speak to the human condition.
There you go there, step in the door, Pink Floyd and punk and hardcore and everything that comes in after that.
Yeah, that's right.
The something I've always found so interesting in regards to that particular area that you came up in, like the whole you know, Merrimack Valley hardcore, Like how fertile that scene was not only for hardcore, but just like obviously you know Piebald and the litany of bands that came from that particular area and the diverse sounds that came from that area because you were, you know, in the middle of it and experiencing a lot of it, Like did you feel that momentum, and I use the word momentum like it's like some you know snowball rolling down the hills, like you know, one hundred kids at a show at that time probably was you know, exciting or whatever, but like, did you feel that activity of all these you know, bands starting and playing VFW halls and stuff like that in that time period?
Uh? Yeah, yeah, I mean it was great. It was.
There.
It started to fade not too long after well, Nirvana happened and fucked everything up. Like it was great and in a lot of ways, but it would it forced everyone to do because it used to be that, you know, pre Nirvana, if you were you know, a Smith's fan or a Ministry fan, you were like, we're on the same team, right, those those could not be two more diametrically posted sounding bands. And then so after you know, Nirvana, then everything became like subscenes, right, because like you had to be like, no, look, I'm specifically into this genre or college rock or whatever it is. And then in the hardcore world there was this wonderful, magical little time where emo bands could play with metal bands could play with straight to hardcore bands could play with like instrumental bands like post rock bands before everyone it got so big that everyone felt the need to subdivide again, to define their personalities, because that's what you do, like when you're a kid, like especially if you're you know, white kid from the suburbs, you define your personality by the art you like. And there was a time when like, yeah, playing playing shows with Converge and Piebald and cave In and In My Eyes and ten Yard Fight and Bane and six going on seven. I can go on and on Milltown, but like it was great. It was It felt really maybe I'm panting it over with Gold because I like so much of that stuff, but there was just a mutual appreciation of what was going sure, you know, and and I've mentioned this before, but Kurt Blue from Converge is largely a responsible catalyst for that, as is Brian McTurnan, recording engineer Sad Salad Days, as was Ed McNamara, who are in the space. These were I mean, everybody was part of it, you know, everybody that did sound, everybody that you know hauled gear. But those guys had a real sort of like let's fucking do this mentality, you know, like what do you do play this, you can be part of it. You know what I mean That that was I think really really helpful to everybody around is they felt like there was we were all kind of on the same team, right the you know, in trying it was all left of the dial, right, so it was all right right.
And I liked that encouraging atmosphere because sometimes I know that people of different you know, generations or different areas that they grew up with, like there's an element of keeping that obviously exists just because you know, you're like, oh, do you even belong here? Like you haven't gone to enough shows whatever it's But it's like when you do have people like the as you mentioned and others that have that encouraging tone of just like, hey, participate, I don't care what it is that you do, Like there's something you could be involved with. And I think the more you hear that from more and more people, and especially people that are you know, in bands or whatever, all it's gonna do is make you want to get more involved.
Yeah, you're you're getting you're getting the positive feedback that you're looking for, you know, from from the peer group that you want. And so that just makes you want to do more exactly. Youre just like, this is this is where I feel I belong. You know, maybe I'm not. Maybe I'm still striving, or maybe I'm working to put out my first record, or maybe I'm working to you know, do my first art showing or whatever. It is, like you feel like, well, at least I'm in the right place. Right.
Yeah, I'm I'm going to eventually be able to you know, live out whatever piece of art, you know, putting out a demo. I'm gonna be able to accomplish that alongside these other people and then you know, maybe play a show and that's exciting.
Yeah, yeah, and that's super exciting.
When you started to, you know, bring this stuff home to your parents and the idea of like, you know, playing in a band, and were they i mean clearly they were permissive enough to obviously allow it to happen, But were they like Joseph Is flushing his life down the toilet being in these you know, dumb bands or whatever. You know, what was their general take on it.
My parents were great, man. They actually encouraged me to study theater in college. I I think the band said none of it ever made sense to them. I think maybe they liked theater because theater did make sense to them, right, but none of the music ever resonated. And I remember being probably like like right at the same time eighth grade, playing that Violent Femmes record, you know, the first one, just like trying to turn it down so they couldn't hear the swear words, and like, you know, it was all weird to them. But they were always supportive, you know, and they were like, wherever I was, whatever do and they're like, you know, have a great show tonight, shoe, you know, and you know, like they don't. I'm like, please don't come to my shows, don't listen to my records. It's not for you. You're not the demographic I'm trying to hit. But they were like, we know this brings you something that you can't get anywhere else, so keep going. And they were great. I mean, there definitely was the point where there's moments where they're like, so you thought about, you know, getting a job with helping them, guess, you know, but but and those that's natural. But no, for the most part, they're incredibly that's awesome.
That's awesome, and especially too where it's like when you start to pursue a like you mentioned, left of the dial life path that isn't like, you know, because clearly you had an example in the house of your father being involved in a trade and being like, well, of course, Joseph, you were going to mess around with you know, dials and make sure electricity works or whatever like that. Practicality of that is sometimes hard to look past, but it obviously sounds like you're you know, your parents were just like, well, yeah, this is his path.
Yeah, I mean, and but it is interesting because it was different too, because my dad never taught me anything a by electricity specifically, he didn't want me to work in the trades. He wanted me to go to college. You know. He worked his butt off, as did my mom to give us a nice life and try and push us towards you know, higher learning. But he was just like no, no, no, because I mean, my dad never went to high school. You know, he had to quit I think when he was thirteen and go to trade school or fourteen to start making money for his family. So that was like he didn't want that experience for me. So he you know, even though he was encouraging things that were like music, which probably wasn't even remotely, It wasn't even the dream of an option for him. You know. He was just like, yeah, yeah, do that thing. Just just just work at it, you know, just don't don't half ass Yeah.
No, that's it. I love that. Don't half asset because I think what probably happened. That probably happens, I know happens where when parents see that their kids get excited about something, and even if they don't understand it, if they obviously you know, put a wet blanket over it, and then the kid ends up, you know, hating the parent even more than they normally do during those you know, tumultuous years. It's like that's the excitement. You're like, my kid is fired up about something, Okay, like let's run with it.
Yeah yeah, I mean it should be you should I mean shouldn't that I mean, shouldn't that be the Heights? You kid found something that, Yeah, like that should be it should be, you know, but.
Not everybody thinks that way was the because I know that Garrison, like you put out a seven inch obviously before you signed a REV and everything was Garrison ostensibly your first band that like you know, really quote unquote got out there as far as you know, touring and putting out records and stuff like that, or did you play in things before that?
Yeah, I had a regional band called Stricken for Catherine, which is like emo Prague, trying to be like Soundgarden Rodan kind of thing. But we didn't play us out of New England. And you know, we put out a couple of records, but it wasn't it didn't. They weren't distributed really very much. So Garrison was the first. I mean that that was it. Being on Revelation was a big deal, you know to me, And yeah, that was the first sort of thing. And then yeah, obviously we wanted a tour desperately, so we had done some touring beforehand. Because I actually Kurt Bully from Converge. It gave me a bunch of numbers. We were writing letters back and forth when I was living in New Hampshire because we knew each other because our bands had played together, his old band, the Huguenots, And I was like, hey man, how do you book a tour? And he's just like, here's the people you call, and he just you know, sent me I don't know about like fifteen phone numbers of people down the East coast, and so those are the people I called to do Garrison's first tour, and yeah, being being suddenly having distribution was was a total trip. And being able to go to places like Europe, I mean that was that was crazy. Even the West Coast. That was so many places I've seen and my experience with seeing them is from the point of view of a touring musician, which is great because you get to see the parts of the town. You don't get to see the Eiffel Tower, you know, you get to see the fucking cool cafe at that store, you know, and you get to and and like I always say, you get to meet the people you would have been best friends with had you grown up in that town. And that's there's nothing better. You know that, that's the total And so, yeah, that was awesome.
I love companies that not only know what they're doing, but it's like I feel like I could just like work there. And I've joked around with my friends at Evilgreed dot net on more than one occasion that basically I'm like a glorified employee where I just sing the praises of what it is that they do and they open you know, web stores and sell merch vinyl, all this stuff for bands. They're based out of Berlin, Germany. But don't let that scare you here in the United States, because they ship worldwide and the shipping rates are very advantageous for us here in the States. And they have a very specific point of view. Trust me in saying that if you like this show and you like the you know, wide diverse range of guests that we bring on, you absolutely will love what Evil Greed has to offer. Like you know, they offer stuff from you know, modern baseball coalesce. They work with labels like Run for Cover, Triple B, Flat Spot, Sergeant House, and they just do an amazing job. And like I said, they sell vinyl, they sell shirts, they sell sweatshirts, all that stuff, and it actually reminds me back in the day, like this makes me old obviously, but like the very distro catalog, same sort of vibe where it's basically just being like, oh my gosh, like they have this, they have that Oh geez, I'm just gonna go in and order it all. Like I definitely remember, you know, giving my mom a list of things to or from the very distric catalog for like Christmas, so you can do that too, but you know, maybe it's a more modern version where you can just order off the internet. It's great. So Evilgreed dot Net poke around their site and you will find bare minimum, like five or six things you want to order right off the bat, and then you'll be following along with their journey and get some emails and like here's new stock updates. They're a great company. So Evilgreed dot Net have fun shopping? Were you? Because, like you said, the relationship with Kurt and you know, booking shows and stuff like that, did the you know, business responsibilities fall on your shoulders in Garrison? I mean I know that usually obviously it's somewhat of a democracy with you know, most bands, where it's like oh yes, there's the main communicator that talks to the label and stuff and then you relay the information of the band and stuff like that. But was that you know, kind of bandad for lack of a better term, falling on your shoulders?
Yeah, but you know it's a double edged sword. I wanted it because I wanted control, you know, and I and I really, you know, I really desired this to to succeed. Not to succeed financially, but to succeed artistically, you know, to do these things was very and still is very important to me to have these experiences, and so yeah, it fell on me. But then eventually, you know, later on, I resented the guys because I felt like I was doing everything. So then you start thinking, oh, I'm doing all the fucking work and booking all the tours and all the label contacts. Maybe I should have more hand in the songwriting. That these are cancerous thoughts, they get in the way, But like it's just a young mind trying to circle the square. But that was Yeah, I definitely took on most of the sort of managerial right, And I.
Know, like you were talking about the like control aspect, a lot of the times, you know, it just falls on the singer's shoulders because it's just like, oh, yeah, that's the person that has the microphone, so I guess we'll talk to them to settle the show and stuff. Did you did you find and I guess pleasure out of that or was that just kind of like a mantle You knew that if something or someone else was handling it, you probably wouldn't get as much satisfaction out of it.
It depends on the aspects of it. There's certain aspects I loved learning about the record business. I still do. I liked talking to people at the label about like, oh, okay, so, so how do you press a record? You know, how does that work? So? And then what is distribution? And then sort of and I liked, you know, sort of deconstructing record contracts and being okay, what does that legally mean and sort of trying applying it to different hypotheticals. The other part, the sort of the show stuff. I wasn't very good at getting paid. I wish I had been better at that. I wasn't particularly forceful when I should have been a little bit more stand up for my guys and advocate from my band and myself. And I should have been like, no, man, you said you're gonna payus one hundred bucks. You gotta pay us hundred bucks. I know there's nobody here becau sunny Day real estates in town, but that's what the word guarantee means, right, you know, Like, you know, I wish i'd been better at that. And I'm not a particularly good self promoter. I've got some friends that a friend named Justin Scurty, and he's amazing at it, like to the point where I'm just I'm in awe of watching him be like just walk up to people and be like, hey, you going out next week and be like yeah, it's like you should have taken my band out. You really fucked that up, like and then everybody laughs and I'm just like, dude, you that was fantastic. Like he's just he's gotta he's got a thing about him. It's really cool. Anyways. Uh yeah, I mean aspects I liked. I liked. I like knowing the mechanics of it and having an inside seat to that and talking to lawyers about it. But the some of the day to day stuff I like driving, Okay, I liked. I like, I don't mind loading at all really, but the the getting paid thing used to be a lot hard.
Yeah, definitely was, especially the concept and I know that you've probably heard or witnessed many of these experiences of taking the promoter to you know, an ATM to get their money or it's like that. I like you, I never ever felt comfortable doing that with the person because, for one, I'm not threatening, and for two, it just feels really weird, and so, yeah, it's but sometimes it is necessary to be like, all right, well dude, I mean otherwise I can't get to the next show with my band's ban or whatever.
Yeah mm hmm, I mean, I mean, yeah that we did that once, but it wasn't me. It was the drummer. Who's the drummer we had in at the time, jaymore Sat was a lot more forceful and better at it than I was, and he was like, he was like, let's go to the ATM And I was like, wow, man, right, total dog, you're the bustle. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it's it's it's hard because you know, you you're we're all learning as we go and it's not like we all went to like, you know, public relations school. So it's it's, yeah, you're you're sorting it out, you're figuring out in real time, and sometimes, you know, we all say stupid things or awkward things and you're just like, no, I didn't mean that. Why did I say that? You know? Yeah, Or you just handle things poorly. You know, you don't ask for what you need and you don't communicate what you can give. You know, that's you know, something you.
How did you even get hooked up with Rev in the first place? Like it's just you know, when certain bands kind of filter to Rev, you can, you know, as a hardcore punk nerd, like you can kind of trace the lines, like, oh, I see how this happened. But for you guys, I never was able to you know, I mean besides the fact that you were heavily involved in you know, the scene, so to speak, in your area. You know, how'd you get discovered?
Kid? I sent him a demo tape. I sent a bunch of bands. I went through. I went through every zine. But this before Garrison's first tour, right, So we booked a tour. We made a demo tape recorded in Kurt's basement, and then we pressed up like I think one hundred cassettes with artwork and I I just went to the post office and mailed every label that you could see in a zine a copy of it with our touring dates. And you know, I said, we're Garrison, We're four piece band from central Massachusetts. These are our touring dates, this is our demo and sent it to everyone. And when we got back from that first tour, there was an answer on my my answering machine from Revelation Records. Somebody in the mail room had heard it, sent it up the chain. They listened to it and said we could probably sell some of this, and and and got reached out and then then started talking.
That's amazing. It was this Jason Upright that you were talcket to.
It wasn't it was originally it was Vic Martin Jason Upright and I eventually started talking, but not until maybe two months, three months into the process, I think, and I don't really Yeah, no, that's great, but Jason, yeah, Jason, so yeah, both.
Top shelf humans. It's awesome.
Yeah.
The I guess the life plans like you know, attached to the band, Like clearly you were focused on that. You were, you know, touring as much as you could, you were putting up music and you know, we were very focused on that. Was there any you know, idea or conceit of the idea or the life outside of the band, you know, were you kind of like trying to you know, build towards something or it was like no, I'm just gonna work in this you know, general art stuff and then figure things out as they come.
Yeah, there was no life out there. Okay, it was It really wasn't you know, Like I I lived eight breathed music, that genre of music, that style of music, that scene of music. I adored it, and I just you know, I it was everything to me. You know, there's like, you know, that was it. For the longest time, there was no other life. Jobs were just things you had to pay bills so you could continue to make music, period, which is what happens to a lot of like you know, fellow musicians, is we all do that, and then we do it for like a decade, and then we look around, you know, like thirty two, thirty three and realize you have no marketable skills. You know, your band breaks up, and you're like, oh shit, I got to get a real job. I can't get a real job. I'm not even qualified to work at McDonald's, you know. So like that, that fear grabs a lot of people in their early thirties, at least it used to. I don't notice like that.
Yeah, no, especially to where you're exactly what you're talking about, where all your life is centered around this, you know, band, and everything else is in service of that. So all you're doing is just you know, being this transitory human in all so many different way shapes and forms that it's like, oh, wait, what do you mean, Like I'm not going to tour, you know, six months out of the year, Like I have to like figure out what my life looks like outside of that. That doesn't make any sense.
Yeah, that's a very shocking that slaps people in the face. Slap me in the face for sure.
I wanted to talk about Instruction because correct me if I'm wrong, like you you were in instruction for the entirety of the band's short life. Or where did you come into play?
No, no, no, I joined. I joined while they were while they were mixing their full length I don't play a note okay record, but I toured it every show that that was in support of that, which were quite a few for several years.
Yes, I mean that's the It's an interesting band for a multitude of reasons. The fact that you know, I mean, I remember when the record came out and I was already you know, pot committed to anything that anybody from quicksand Ever touched. So it was one of those things where I was like, oh, this record is good. I was like, it's different, but it's good, and then you know the fact that there was traction over the UK and that sort of stuff. What was it like for you as you started to step into this world that you know, like you mentioned the major label world and being like, oh, this is on a whole different level than anything that I've ever really been used to in the past.
I think the mechanism of the industry is one that takes advantage of young people who don't know better. I don't think that's anyone's fault in particular. I just think that's how the machinery of it works. Because you come in to a situation and you look around and you're like, these are the people you're meeting at the label, and a lot of them, you know, there's a few that are great, Jen Littleton, there's a few that are really cool, but there's a lot of people that you're like, I I wouldn't hang out with you. I don't I don't think you listen to music for the same reasons I listened to music. I don't know if we I don't think you like me. I don't think I think you're just saying you like my record. I don't think you've listened to it and I think you say that to everybody and you can read it a mile away and that kind of stuff. But then there's also this PCV that goes, well, maybe this is maybe this is what everybody did. Maybe this is what the police did, Maybe this is what ARAM did. I don't know. All I know is I want to continue to work towards this dream I've had for a long time, which is to continue to make art and music. And so you're just you second guess instincts that you rightfully have about the people you're surrounding yourself with, and then you're like, Okay, I guess I think this is how it's done. I don't know. I've never been here before, so there's a lot of that. I found the major label world interesting. I'm happy that I went through sort of boot camp with with the revelation that helped, but I found it very Yeah, just just a machine. You know, People like I couldn't. I couldn't hack it, man, I couldn't. I couldn't play the game. I couldn't be like you know, people are like yo, Like you're getting introduced to like evan essence and someone's like, Yo, this is Joe. He's an instruction they're the hot new thing now and the guitars from Evan Essence, It's like, what do you sound like? And I just go, it's two guitars based in drums. It sounds like everything you've ever heard before in your life. And I'm just like, why did I do that? I'm a dick. I should have I should have been like, yeah, man, it's cool, like, but I didn't have the skill set then, you know what I mean. So it's just like, yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't way the game. Certain people were better. Arty was better at it than I was. Alredy Arty was very good. Arty was also a lot more personal than I was.
Well, there's definitely you know, people who are more comfortable existing alongside of you know, flack of a better term, you know, civilians, normal people or whatever, and like some of us, it's just like I don't really want to play that small talk game, like yeah, so you're not gonna especially where you're coming from, you're not gonna be like all right, I'm gonna just like, you know, completely blow this person's mind by my description of my band, Like that's not gonna it's not Anna only.
Relevance yeah, I mean, and you know, but I couldn't even like because at that point, like we were going out, we were touring with like Buddle of Mud and Lincoln Park and Corn and Snoop Dogg, and I didn't really like any of that music. I mean, no offense, like I think a lot of those people are great people and great musicians, but that music didn't resonate with me. Whereas all the touring I'd done previous, most of it was with bands that I would have bought their records or I would have you know, we would have it makes sense, we're at the same show. I always felt like I was intruding on their major label world and that I didn't belong right, right, That's how it felt.
And I mean with the you know, continuation of being involved in a lot of different bands, because I mean, you know, Garrison instruction, like you said, you know gave her Johnny Depp, and you know, with your current iteration of you know her heads on fire, you have continued to not only care about music, but obviously be involved in a really you know, meaningful way. What I realized this may be a big question done back, but just like why why do you still care? Why are you still connected to it? Because I mean, you know, ostensibly like you don't need to do this anymore per se, but I mean clearly you do because it's you know, in your bones. But what, uh, you know, what keeps you going?
Well, the short answer is it makes me a better dad. It having this aspect of my life be fulfilled makes me a better husband and father because I feel satisfied and and I feel more more right with the world, you know, more in place. But you know, I did go through a period of real bitterness for a while about like why am I not more successful? Why am I seeing watching peers you know on MTV, and be like why is that not me? You know, and and and doing the very typical thing, which is to look outward and say it's their fault they suck, or it's the crowd's fault, or it's this label EMO, or it's the record label Revin being like, or maybe I should get better at writing songs, you know. Uh. But then I I quit music for a while to be a dad. I quit for about five years. I have twins, uh, And then I started to get back into it and I realized how how wonderful and important a lot of it was to me that it just touches this part of my soul and I love Rather than sort of hating everything and being like bitter and jaded, I'm like, no, I actually love everything. Like I love tones, I love you know so much, rhythms, I love music, I love melody. I just there's something about that raises the hair on the back of my neck. And and I just I love creation. You know, there's the do you do you make art? Do you play music or do anything artistic? I mean not to say the podcast isn't.
No, no, it's okay. So I totally understand. Yeah, no, I do. I yell at a hardcore band, So I totally I feel yeah.
Yeah. So you know that feeling like when you when something comes across and suddenly you've been challenged and you've created something you never thought you would, but where it almost feels like you don't take responsibility for writing it because it just feels like you pulled it out of the ether, like like you were just a conduit for it. You know that that is the feeling that's the heroin we all keep chasing after, right, And so I'm hopefully you know I've tried to put together programs of practice and exploration and challenges and working with different people in different settings, and touring and recording with different people to continue to give me that feeling. Because I don't get that feeling usually just sitting alone in my room playing a guitar. I need to collaborate with different people to get that feeling. And so that's what I'm hunting for over and over again. And so yeah, that's why I keep doing it and will keep doing it. I mean, I think you know the term lifers that's used that me and all my friends. It's like, yeah, man, like there's no, it's not even a question. I mean, as long as I have any small monicum of free time in my life, I want to create something. I want to because that's because I'm here, because I'm happy to be alive, you know, like, and that's pretty fucking fascinating to me. So I want to I want to continue looking at that from different facets, music being one of them. And you know, I would love I don't know how to make film. I'd love to make a film one day. You know, I've never I've written a bit creative writing, but I'd like to write write a book one day. These all sound really cool. Maybe one day I'll act again, But all those feelings are really fun. I just like that, you know, puts a little dip in your hip, a little spring.
In your step, fire fire in your belly.
Makes this brutality of life, makes the brutality of life more barely.
I agree wholeheartedly. Well, jose can I call you Joe? Or do most people call you Joe's? So if I just realized I hadn't ask that at the very beginning, okay, Joseph, Well, Joseph, I really appreciate your time and letting me poke around your brain.
You're great, Thank you, Ray, let us go.
That was a great discussion, mister Joseph Grillo from her Heads on Fire at Garrison, and I appreciate Rachel his publicist. Shout out to Rachel. We went through a lot of a lot of scheduling conflicts with this traveling tours all that stuff, but anyways, we got it done and hopefully enjoyed that conversation. Next week is another person from the Merrimack Valley scene, as it were, Dan O'Connor from four Years Strong. You know four years strong, right? If you have paid attention to independent music. Broadly speaking, over the past ten to fifteen years, you have undoubtedly encountered four Years Strong. Dan. It was such a great hang, like we nerd out pretty deeply about hardcore and you know, we talk a lot about how that informs the band not only now, but informs him as a person, and it was a great discussion. Next week, Dan O'Connor from four Years Strong, and until then, please be safe, everybody.